Will these teams ever be bought?

[spacejammer]

I was listening to the D & J Podcast whilst driving to and from work today and one of the topics of discussion was the recent events from last week between Plymouth Patriots and Manchester Giants.

And whilst the briefly discussed it I began to talk about how both franchises are being propped up by league.

Given how long these teams have been without an owner it started to make me wonder if these teams will ever be bought out by anybody especially since they were up for sale way before the start of the season.

Whilst I don't know a great deal about what it takes to buy a sporting franchise.
Am I starting to wonder what exactly does it take to purchase a BBL franchise and why neither of them have already been bought or have had any noise on anyone trying to buy them?

Some of the things I'm wondering is it down to possibly.
-777 reputation

-Both teams are struggling in the league.

-Or are they being sold on the market for to much or being marketed really badly.

Can anyone shed any light or want to weigh in?

[erj14]

Would think that it would depend on the ambitions of the potential buyer. If you are going in to make money, you probably are going to have to invest significantly at first to provide a venue that can generate revenue. I don't see how either of these clubs are a good investments as it stands, because of their respective venue situations.

Although a Manc or Devon Timoney could come in tomorrow and transform either club, however unlikely that might be.

[dexter]

It's certainly an interesting question.

First of all I don't believe there is any return to be made from investing in a British basketball team. So why would someone buy a BBL team? The same reason local businessmen put money into their local football, cricket or rugby club. They love the sport and they want to support something good for their community. They will also do it in a tax efficient way; they are spending money that would otherwise be paid in tax.

So why doesn't anyone want to buy a BBL team? There could be a number of reasons.
People in the position to do that prefer other sports.
They don't want to deal with or be associated with 777 Partners.
The teams are overpriced.
In the case of Plymouth they don't have a suitable venue, Plymouth Pavilions is too expensive.
In the case of Manchester Giants they really are a very minor team in a city of genuine sporting giants. Manchester Minnows would be a more accurate name.
I don't think it's down to the teams not being very good. They're as good as they need to be. A new owner could bring in a couple of new players and quickly turn things round on the court.

My theory is if there are interested parties they're probably just waiting for the BBL to collapse, then they can pick up a BBL team from the administrators for £1.

[spacejammer]

Feb 8, 2024 23:18:58 GMT dexter said:

It's certainly an interesting question.

First of all I don't believe there is any return to be made from investing in a British basketball team. So why would someone buy a BBL team? The same reason local businessmen put money into their local football, cricket or rugby club. They love the sport and they want to support something good for their community. They will also do it in a tax efficient way; they are spending money that would otherwise be paid in tax.

So why doesn't anyone want to buy a BBL team? There could be a number of reasons.
People in the position to do that prefer other sports.
They don't want to deal with or be associated with 777 Partners.
The teams are overpriced.
In the case of Plymouth they don't have a suitable venue, Plymouth Pavilions is too expensive.
In the case of Manchester Giants they really are a very minor team in a city of genuine sporting giants. Manchester Minnows would be a more accurate name.
I don't think it's down to the teams not being very good. They're as good as they need to be. A new owner could bring in a couple of new players and quickly turn things round on the court.

My theory is if there are interested parties they're probably just waiting for the BBL to collapse, then they can pick up a BBL team from the administrators for £1.

Fair enough the Plymouth situation with the venue makes sense.
But then it makes me wonder why people who currently own BBL clubs do it.

Why does Paul Blake own the Eagles and Kevin Routledge the Riders?
When watching their documentary the guy who bought Caledonia seemed like he was doing it in order to give something back to the local community.

In terms of selling if no one is buying then I do question how much are the BBL selling these franchises for.

I know in business you want to make money but when you think of it like a shop.

If you cannot sell an item at full price then eventually you put it on sale so you can get something from it?

I wonder how much both these franchises are being on sale for?

[notoriousbigz]

Feb 8, 2024 23:18:58 GMT dexter said:

In the case of Manchester Giants they really are a very minor team in a city of genuine sporting giants.

You'd actually be amazed how much the name Manchester Giants resonates with normal people in the city who have no connection with the sport whatsoever.

I've worked in Manchester and with people from Manchester and get asked about the Giants all the time - a lot of them went to watch in the halcyon days of the 2000s when they played in the MEN but it surprised me just how well known they were.

And apparently a rather famous buyer may be on the horizon. We'll wait and see on that score.

I do genuinely think the Giants are a better buy right now than Plymouth. And with the right people in charge could easily appeal to a wider audience.

[dexter]

Feb 9, 2024 8:22:01 GMT spacejammer said:

Feb 8, 2024 23:18:58 GMT dexter said:

It's certainly an interesting question.

First of all I don't believe there is any return to be made from investing in a British basketball team. So why would someone buy a BBL team? The same reason local businessmen put money into their local football, cricket or rugby club. They love the sport and they want to support something good for their community. They will also do it in a tax efficient way; they are spending money that would otherwise be paid in tax.

So why doesn't anyone want to buy a BBL team? There could be a number of reasons.
People in the position to do that prefer other sports.
They don't want to deal with or be associated with 777 Partners.
The teams are overpriced.
In the case of Plymouth they don't have a suitable venue, Plymouth Pavilions is too expensive.
In the case of Manchester Giants they really are a very minor team in a city of genuine sporting giants. Manchester Minnows would be a more accurate name.
I don't think it's down to the teams not being very good. They're as good as they need to be. A new owner could bring in a couple of new players and quickly turn things round on the court.

My theory is if there are interested parties they're probably just waiting for the BBL to collapse, then they can pick up a BBL team from the administrators for £1.

Fair enough the Plymouth situation with the venue makes sense.
But then it makes me wonder why people who currently own BBL clubs do it.

Why does Paul Blake own the Eagles and Kevin Routledge the Riders?
When watching their documentary the guy who bought Caledonia seemed like he was doing it in order to give something back to the local community.

In terms of selling if no one is buying then I do question how much are the BBL selling these franchises for.

I know in business you want to make money but when you think of it like a shop.

If you cannot sell an item at full price then eventually you put it on sale so you can get something from it?

I wonder how much both these franchises are being on sale for?

Clearly there are some people who have the motivation, skills, time and money to run a BBL team. There just aren't that many of them.
I want basketball to be a popular spectator sport in Britain but I'm not convinced it will be, at least not for a long time. 777 Partners are convinced it will be. This disconnect between their belief in the BBL and the objective evidence could be the reason why they can't agree on a selling price. If 777 Partners are right Manchester Giants could be worth a lot one day. But more likely the league will go bust, they players will leave, and the team will be worthless.

[dexter]

Feb 9, 2024 8:57:17 GMT notoriousbigz said:

Feb 8, 2024 23:18:58 GMT dexter said:

In the case of Manchester Giants they really are a very minor team in a city of genuine sporting giants.

You'd actually be amazed how much the name Manchester Giants resonates with normal people in the city who have no connection with the sport whatsoever.

I've worked in Manchester and with people from Manchester and get asked about the Giants all the time - a lot of them went to watch in the halcyon days of the 2000s when they played in the MEN but it surprised me just how well known they were.

And apparently a rather famous buyer may be on the horizon. We'll wait and see on that score.

I do genuinely think the Giants are a better buy right now than Plymouth. And with the right people in charge could easily appeal to a wider audience.

It's true; I have no idea how popular or famous Manchester Giants are in Manchester. It's good to hear people know about them. I do agree, Manchester Giants are one of the BBL teams with the most potential. They don't have concerns about having an arena to play in.
Plymouth's main problem is the venue situation. They have a good fan base. If anyone buys Plymouth Patriots they buy this problem, of losing money every game. Home games; rent exceeds income. Away games; long distances and travel costs. They really need something like NBPC and for someone else to pay for it.

[D44]

It's about time the Plymouth BBL 'franchise' is left to die if nobody is going to take over and guarantee long term finance. Give it to Hemel or Derby as long as they can put together a venue that no less crappy than Bristols they'd do far better in the league.

Giants there's been rumours forever about a new owner, but it's probably time for the league to put a deadline on 'bids' otherwise they'll have to go back to being a Uni team.

I think it's says a lot about 777 that both these clubs are a shambles, despite the best efforts of the players. Terrible for the fans too, although I'm sure there'll always be a core of fans but good will only lasts so long.

[reallyoldfeenixfan2]

Bigz is right, Giants basketball name was enormous years ago playing in front of thousands winning in Europe. A number of Nix fans only transferred to watch us after their demise and have very fond memories of these times and that continues today for a very large number of Manchester people.
Interesting note,the very large IKEA in Warrington have a big display cabinet (obviously to sell the cabinet!) but inside is a current Giants shirt a programme and foam finger. Obviously they have a fan working there. Perhaps IKEA are the "rather famous buyer" Bigz hinted at?

[dexter]

Feb 9, 2024 10:02:57 GMT D44 said:

It's about time the Plymouth BBL 'franchise' is left to die if nobody is going to take over and guarantee long term finance. Give it to Hemel or Derby as long as they can put together a venue that no less crappy than Bristols they'd do far better in the league.

Giants there's been rumours forever about a new owner, but it's probably time for the league to put a deadline on 'bids' otherwise they'll have to go back to being a Uni team.

I think it's says a lot about 777 that both these clubs are a shambles, despite the best efforts of the players. Terrible for the fans too, although I'm sure there'll always be a core of fans but good will only lasts so long.

I've said this many times; there are good reasons to build an indoor sports arena in Hertfordshire, which could be the home of Hemel Storm, Saracens Mavericks netball team, and host national indoor sports events such as indoor field hockey and handball finals (which have been hosted at Copper Box Arena and Derby Arena). There is no reason to build such an arena in Plymouth because it's only needed for Patriots and it's not very convenient for any other sports to use for their national finals. Of course if someone wants to buy the Patriots and build an arena that would be fantastic, but I don't think that's going to happen. An arena in Hertfordshire could attract funding from several sources.

[isthaturinal]

I bet Vince still has a few quid in his pocket,
He’s been away for a while now,
maybe it’s time for a return.

[spacejammer]

I just find it a worry that these teams haven't been bought yet especially Manchester which Dave F pointed should be a viewed similar to London as a flagship franchise given Manchesters status as a UK city.

There was some hope that these new broadcasting deals would maybe attract an overseas investor but so far nothing as of yet.

As for Plymouth their fans seem so passionate it would be ashame to see the franchise move away from that part of the country.

Although if they haven't found a venue by now perhaps that should be an option if it is between move or go extinct.
I just hope someone other then the league rescues these franchises though before the end of the season.

[mac]

Feb 9, 2024 8:22:01 GMT spacejammer said:

Feb 8, 2024 23:18:58 GMT dexter said:

It's certainly an interesting question.

First of all I don't believe there is any return to be made from investing in a British basketball team. So why would someone buy a BBL team? The same reason local businessmen put money into their local football, cricket or rugby club. They love the sport and they want to support something good for their community. They will also do it in a tax efficient way; they are spending money that would otherwise be paid in tax.

So why doesn't anyone want to buy a BBL team? There could be a number of reasons.
People in the position to do that prefer other sports.
They don't want to deal with or be associated with 777 Partners.
The teams are overpriced.
In the case of Plymouth they don't have a suitable venue, Plymouth Pavilions is too expensive.
In the case of Manchester Giants they really are a very minor team in a city of genuine sporting giants. Manchester Minnows would be a more accurate name.
I don't think it's down to the teams not being very good. They're as good as they need to be. A new owner could bring in a couple of new players and quickly turn things round on the court.

My theory is if there are interested parties they're probably just waiting for the BBL to collapse, then they can pick up a BBL team from the administrators for £1.

Fair enough the Plymouth situation with the venue makes sense.
But then it makes me wonder why people who currently own BBL clubs do it.

Why does Paul Blake own the Eagles and Kevin Routledge the Riders?
When watching their documentary the guy who bought Caledonia seemed like he was doing it in order to give something back to the local community.

In terms of selling if no one is buying then I do question how much are the BBL selling these franchises for.

I know in business you want to make money but when you think of it like a shop.

If you cannot sell an item at full price then eventually you put it on sale so you can get something from it?

I wonder how much both these franchises are being on sale for?

Both Paul Blake and Kevin Routledge love the game. I don't know Kevin's background but Paul used to play (I don't know to what standard) but was hired by Sir John Hall in marketing for the Sporting Club. He got involved with the Eagles and in partnership with Ken Nottage took over the club when the Sporting Club model collapsed. Even though the league had well paying sponsors like Dairylea and Budweiser most clubs were in big debts as the salary cap was ignored. The quality of the Basketball was IMO much higher than now but it wasn't sustainable. Most clubs had issues with fan retention and in the mid nineties you could pick up a flyer in McDonald's that gave adult entry to four games for just £3 each. Many tickets were given away. Away to Giants at the MEN was an amazing experience. It's huge and they would regularly get over 6,000 attending. When the national sponsorship dried up many clubs were in trouble. I'm honestly not trying to pick on Giants but what happened to them is scary for any Basketball fan. Within just a couple of years they went from an successful franchise with a really good following to a collapsing team with approximately 200 in attendance. I was one of the Eagles fans that made that away trip. As a fan of the game it was heartbreaking and they folded soon after.

Paul had a hard lesson in the early years but he and his wife Sam persevered. The rest is history. They built the club up on solid foundations, hired Tony Garbelotto who hired Fab. Fab reluctantly became player coach and the rest is history. Separate from the BBL team they now have a kids program which is arguably the envy of the league. For the more gifted there are clear pathways to the senior team. In the case of Toson an excellent US education and now an NBA contract.

Which brings me back to the OP and the question will Giants and Plymouth ever be bought? I have no idea what 777 Partners are asking for the franchises but why would anyone buy either at the moment? 777s financial and legal problems are common knowledge. I don't care about the football clubs they have, I do care very deeply about the BBL and the future of basketball in this country. The lack of a reasonably priced venue will, I think, be the end of Plymouth. For Manchester though there is still hope. I don't know how they're doing now but Manchester Magic used to have a fantastic junior program with clear pathways to their NBL side. The interest is there but why would an investor buy in now? They won't, not until the 777 Partners issue is resolved. This could happen very quickly if their Everton bid is declined. If that happens I think there will be a cascade effect as investors try to get their money back. Then the league will need the likes of Paul, Sam and Kevin to salvage what they can. While we watch on, helplessly.😕

I think I've got the history right but if any is incorrect please tell me. I think my ego can handle it.😁

[tallerman]

Nobody will buy Plymouth. The last 5 years of a Plymouth franchise will put any sensible business person right off. The fanbase is dwindling, argyle are in the championship and albion are improving. The fact the rugby and football clubs are working together with the council and wanted nothing to do with basketball strains it still. Id be very shocked if 777 continue to run Plymouth, its making a serious loss every week and doesnt make sense to keep going.

Manchester seems mad to not find a buyer. I know they have serious sporting rivals in the city but there has to be scope for profit there.

[milehigh]

Possibly the best outcome for the Manchester franchise would be for the INEOS organisation to add it to their diverse portfolio of sports properties.

[blueskies99]

Feb 10, 2024 0:13:17 GMT mac said:

Feb 9, 2024 8:22:01 GMT spacejammer said:

Fair enough the Plymouth situation with the venue makes sense.
But then it makes me wonder why people who currently own BBL clubs do it.

Why does Paul Blake own the Eagles and Kevin Routledge the Riders?
When watching their documentary the guy who bought Caledonia seemed like he was doing it in order to give something back to the local community.

In terms of selling if no one is buying then I do question how much are the BBL selling these franchises for.

I know in business you want to make money but when you think of it like a shop.

If you cannot sell an item at full price then eventually you put it on sale so you can get something from it?

I wonder how much both these franchises are being on sale for?

Both Paul Blake and Kevin Routledge love the game. I don't know Kevin's background but Paul used to play (I don't know to what standard) but was hired by Sir John Hall in marketing for the Sporting Club. He got involved with the Eagles and in partnership with Ken Nottage took over the club when the Sporting Club model collapsed. Even though the league had well paying sponsors like Dairylea and Budweiser most clubs were in big debts as the salary cap was ignored. The quality of the Basketball was IMO much higher than now but it wasn't sustainable. Most clubs had issues with fan retention and in the mid nineties you could pick up a flyer in McDonald's that gave adult entry to four games for just £3 each. Many tickets were given away. Away to Giants at the MEN was an amazing experience. It's huge and they would regularly get over 6,000 attending. When the national sponsorship dried up many clubs were in trouble. I'm honestly not trying to pick on Giants but what happened to them is scary for any Basketball fan. Within just a couple of years they went from an successful franchise with a really good following to a collapsing team with approximately 200 in attendance. I was one of the Eagles fans that made that away trip. As a fan of the game it was heartbreaking and they folded soon after.

Paul had a hard lesson in the early years but he and his wife Sam persevered. The rest is history. They built the club up on solid foundations, hired Tony Garbelotto who hired Fab. Fab reluctantly became player coach and the rest is history. Separate from the BBL team they now have a kids program which is arguably the envy of the league. For the more gifted there are clear pathways to the senior team. In the case of Toson an excellent US education and now an NBA contract.

Which brings me back to the OP and the question will Giants and Plymouth ever be bought? I have no idea what 777 Partners are asking for the franchises but why would anyone buy either at the moment? 777s financial and legal problems are common knowledge. I don't care about the football clubs they have, I do care very deeply about the BBL and the future of basketball in this country. The lack of a reasonably priced venue will, I think, be the end of Plymouth. For Manchester though there is still hope. I don't know how they're doing now but Manchester Magic used to have a fantastic junior program with clear pathways to their NBL side. The interest is there but why would an investor buy in now? They won't, not until the 777 Partners issue is resolved. This could happen very quickly if their Everton bid is declined. If that happens I think there will be a cascade effect as investors try to get their money back. Then the league will need the likes of Paul, Sam and Kevin to salvage what they can. While we watch on, helplessly.😕

I think I've got the history right but if any is incorrect please tell me. I think my ego can handle it.😁

Kevin did come from a playing background too, hence his love of the game.

[LTfan]

I’ve heard there’s been interest in Manchester, but the 777 Partners situation has prevented any deal being done… yet.

I’ve heard no such thing about Plymouth though. I think they’re really on borrowed time now.

[spacejammer]

Feb 10, 2024 15:18:56 GMT LTfan said:

I’ve heard there’s been interest in Manchester, but the 777 Partners situation has prevented any deal being done… yet.

I’ve heard no such thing about Plymouth though. I think they’re really on borrowed time now.

I wonder if doing the classic Euroleague and teaming up with a football club would help the Patriots or even the Giants along with a name change.

I could really see the Giants being rebranded as the Manchester City Giants or the Manchester Red Devils depending on if they are bought by either Man City or Man United football club.

For Plymouth I think it would be cool to see them rebranded as the Argyle Pirates maybe?

Speaking of investors I wonder if any interest in potential new franchises has also be sparked by the leagues recent exposure in the media?

[dexter]

Feb 10, 2024 18:35:30 GMT spacejammer said:

Feb 10, 2024 15:18:56 GMT LTfan said:

I’ve heard there’s been interest in Manchester, but the 777 Partners situation has prevented any deal being done… yet.

I’ve heard no such thing about Plymouth though. I think they’re really on borrowed time now.

I wonder if doing the classic Euroleague and teaming up with a football club would help the Patriots or even the Giants along with a name change.

I could really see the Giants being rebranded as the Manchester City Giants or the Manchester Red Devils depending on if they are bought by either Man City or Man United football club.

For Plymouth I think it would be cool to see them rebranded as the Argyle Pirates maybe?

Speaking of investors I wonder if any interest in potential new franchises has also be sparked by the leagues recent exposure in the media?

Manchester City buying Manchester Giants seems like a logical thing for Manchester City's Abu Dhabi owners to do. They are building an enormous indoor arena in Manchester which they have said they want to use for indoor sports including basketball. UAE is becoming more and involved in European basketball as well as the NBA and international basketball. I can see it happening.

In Plymouth, with Plymouth Argyle and Plymouth Albion both doing well I don't really see them diverting any thoughts or funding to basketball. Plymouth Argyle are already investing a lot in their women's team including facilities so I don't think basketball is in their plans at all.

[notoriousbigz]

It's not long since Argyle had serious financial issues themselves if I'm not mistaken?

They won't be as daft as to throw money elsewhere where they don't need to.