|
|
Post by spacejammer on Feb 13, 2024 22:30:55 GMT
What would be best would be for all the clubs to have sensible, sustainable business models, on a balanced financial playing field, so that all clubs have a chance of being competitive and sustainable, if managed properly. You keep pushing this narrative of the league not being competitive? In my eyes the league is the closest it has been for a number of years. In past years you had Newcastle dominating, or Leicester dominating. Now you have London. It works this way in professional sport. Anyone can beat anyone in the league right now. A salary cap is SO restrictive. Yes it requires the league to be well funded and sponsorships/owners to be able to pay for the higher level player contracts. That was never going to happen instantly. The level of talent in the BBL has definitely increased over the last two seasons. Look at other leagues around Europe: you will see certain teams dominating, for example: Denmark - Bakken Bears 13 of last 16. 7 in a row Belgium - Oostende. Last 11 years in a row France - Asvel 3 of last 4. Although a very strong league, however higher profile clubs in Euro comps winning. Russia - CSKA Moscow - 10 of last 13. Germany - Alba Berlin 3 of last 4. Similar to French league. Greek - Panathinaikos & Olympiacos 30 of last 31!!!!!!!! Spain - Real Madrid & Barcelona 11 of last 13 Lithuania - Zalgiris 24 of last 30 seasons Slovenia - Cedevita Olimpija - last 3 I don’t see how London being a stronger team makes the league worse!! Just look at the list above. Some of the best leagues in Europe are dominated by teams. Infact I feel it makes the league better. Other teams have something to chase. Look at Cheshire, they took that Trophy Final so personally! Yes London probably have the league wrapped up… but we know they can be beat in one off games so Playoff Champions is not a given. I'm not sure what BBL league your referring to but seeing how far ahead Lions are I wouldn't exactly say this was the closest I have seen the league or believe anyone can beat anyone. Although from what people have suggested with the salary cap vs no cap it seems like for the league it is a lose lose either way. As without the salary cap unless the team with the unlimited resource budget like the Lions was to agree not to take advantage of it which why wouldn't you. It seems like the only way to make it competive is we would need more people to invest which I'm not sure is going to happen unless someone like Man City invested in a team and then others joined. On the flip side of things re introducing the salary cap and putting limits will cause the star talent of Lions to leave but then less likely to encourage top level talent to even consider the BBL. I think the way I look at it is their is a solid argument for both sides for why we should and shouldn't have a salary cap. That being said I think the only fair way it could maybe work is with 777 owning the league only and not owning a team instead for starters that way we wouldnt be able to say they are fixing the league to suit them. That being said if that was to be agreed who would be willing to take over fund a team to play in EuroCup and the BBL? And when this season is done will any more revenue or owners come into this league? |
|
|
|
Post by erj14 on Feb 13, 2024 23:23:31 GMT
What would be best would be for all the clubs to have sensible, sustainable business models, on a balanced financial playing field, so that all clubs have a chance of being competitive and sustainable, if managed properly. You keep pushing this narrative of the league not being competitive? In my eyes the league is the closest it has been for a number of years. In past years you had Newcastle dominating, or Leicester dominating. Now you have London. It works this way in professional sport. Anyone can beat anyone in the league right now. A salary cap is SO restrictive. Yes it requires the league to be well funded and sponsorships/owners to be able to pay for the higher level player contracts. That was never going to happen instantly. The level of talent in the BBL has definitely increased over the last two seasons. Look at other leagues around Europe: you will see certain teams dominating, for example: Denmark - Bakken Bears 13 of last 16. 7 in a row Belgium - Oostende. Last 11 years in a row France - Asvel 3 of last 4. Although a very strong league, however higher profile clubs in Euro comps winning. Russia - CSKA Moscow - 10 of last 13. Germany - Alba Berlin 3 of last 4. Similar to French league. Greek - Panathinaikos & Olympiacos 30 of last 31!!!!!!!! Spain - Real Madrid & Barcelona 11 of last 13 Lithuania - Zalgiris 24 of last 30 seasons Slovenia - Cedevita Olimpija - last 3 I don’t see how London being a stronger team makes the league worse!! Just look at the list above. Some of the best leagues in Europe are dominated by teams. Infact I feel it makes the league better. Other teams have something to chase. Look at Cheshire, they took that Trophy Final so personally! Yes London probably have the league wrapped up… but we know they can be beat in one off games so Playoff Champions is not a given. Newcastle and Leicester did their winning on the same playing field as the rest though. London are doing it while outspending the rest of the league put together, several times over. I wouldn't have an issue with this if they were selling out the Copperbox, with big sponsorship deals (they have NOTHING on their jerseys, how!?!) and helping put down proper community roots in London. But they aren't and are accruing huge losses. The sad truth is that it's pretty likely what they're doing at the moment will put them out of business at some point in the future. |
|
|
|
Post by eillo23 on Feb 14, 2024 0:02:53 GMT
You keep pushing this narrative of the league not being competitive? In my eyes the league is the closest it has been for a number of years. In past years you had Newcastle dominating, or Leicester dominating. Now you have London. It works this way in professional sport. Anyone can beat anyone in the league right now. A salary cap is SO restrictive. Yes it requires the league to be well funded and sponsorships/owners to be able to pay for the higher level player contracts. That was never going to happen instantly. The level of talent in the BBL has definitely increased over the last two seasons. Look at other leagues around Europe: you will see certain teams dominating, for example: Denmark - Bakken Bears 13 of last 16. 7 in a row Belgium - Oostende. Last 11 years in a row France - Asvel 3 of last 4. Although a very strong league, however higher profile clubs in Euro comps winning. Russia - CSKA Moscow - 10 of last 13. Germany - Alba Berlin 3 of last 4. Similar to French league. Greek - Panathinaikos & Olympiacos 30 of last 31!!!!!!!! Spain - Real Madrid & Barcelona 11 of last 13 Lithuania - Zalgiris 24 of last 30 seasons Slovenia - Cedevita Olimpija - last 3 I don’t see how London being a stronger team makes the league worse!! Just look at the list above. Some of the best leagues in Europe are dominated by teams. Infact I feel it makes the league better. Other teams have something to chase. Look at Cheshire, they took that Trophy Final so personally! Yes London probably have the league wrapped up… but we know they can be beat in one off games so Playoff Champions is not a given. Newcastle and Leicester did their winning on the same playing field as the rest though. London are doing it while outspending the rest of the league put together, several times over. I wouldn't have an issue with this if they were selling out the Copperbox, with big sponsorship deals (they have NOTHING on their jerseys, how!?!) and helping put down proper community roots in London. But they aren't and are accruing huge losses. The sad truth is that it's pretty likely what they're doing at the moment will put them out of business at some point in the future. Leicester got competitive by using one of the U.K. best university’s to offer academic options for players whilst also playing professional sport. If you were to look at the players they have had over the years that have also studied and played, you’d be surprised. I would expect that this helped them to get good talent within the salary cap at the time. London have created some great relationships with brands and collaborations. I’d expect sponsorship to come. What’s to know that there have been offers but they have been declined by London? The partnership with StockX was a great move. I am not sure where you are getting your information regarding not putting down community roots? I have seen them do nothing but offer more to the local London community’s. As for selling out the Copper Box…. They are doing a pretty good job. Crowd numbers are up hugely on previous seasons. Do remember they are playing extremely more fixtures then other BBL teams, so the cost for fans to attend games is a lot greater. That being said, the Copper box is always looking pretty well filled. |
|
|
|
Post by eillo23 on Feb 14, 2024 0:11:45 GMT
You keep pushing this narrative of the league not being competitive? In my eyes the league is the closest it has been for a number of years. In past years you had Newcastle dominating, or Leicester dominating. Now you have London. It works this way in professional sport. Anyone can beat anyone in the league right now. A salary cap is SO restrictive. Yes it requires the league to be well funded and sponsorships/owners to be able to pay for the higher level player contracts. That was never going to happen instantly. The level of talent in the BBL has definitely increased over the last two seasons. Look at other leagues around Europe: you will see certain teams dominating, for example: Denmark - Bakken Bears 13 of last 16. 7 in a row Belgium - Oostende. Last 11 years in a row France - Asvel 3 of last 4. Although a very strong league, however higher profile clubs in Euro comps winning. Russia - CSKA Moscow - 10 of last 13. Germany - Alba Berlin 3 of last 4. Similar to French league. Greek - Panathinaikos & Olympiacos 30 of last 31!!!!!!!! Spain - Real Madrid & Barcelona 11 of last 13 Lithuania - Zalgiris 24 of last 30 seasons Slovenia - Cedevita Olimpija - last 3 I don’t see how London being a stronger team makes the league worse!! Just look at the list above. Some of the best leagues in Europe are dominated by teams. Infact I feel it makes the league better. Other teams have something to chase. Look at Cheshire, they took that Trophy Final so personally! Yes London probably have the league wrapped up… but we know they can be beat in one off games so Playoff Champions is not a given. I'm not sure what BBL league your referring to but seeing how far ahead Lions are I wouldn't exactly say this was the closest I have seen the league or believe anyone can beat anyone. Although from what people have suggested with the salary cap vs no cap it seems like for the league it is a lose lose either way. As without the salary cap unless the team with the unlimited resource budget like the Lions was to agree not to take advantage of it which why wouldn't you. It seems like the only way to make it competive is we would need more people to invest which I'm not sure is going to happen unless someone like Man City invested in a team and then others joined. On the flip side of things re introducing the salary cap and putting limits will cause the star talent of Lions to leave but then less likely to encourage top level talent to even consider the BBL. I think the way I look at it is their is a solid argument for both sides for why we should and shouldn't have a salary cap. That being said I think the only fair way it could maybe work is with 777 owning the league only and not owning a team instead for starters that way we wouldnt be able to say they are fixing the league to suit them. That being said if that was to be agreed who would be willing to take over fund a team to play in EuroCup and the BBL? And when this season is done will any more revenue or owners come into this league? 21-22 season Leicester finished with a 25-2 record, 2nd place was Sheffield on 17-10. Did people moan that season? The bbl is competitive this year. London have shown they can be beaten, especially due to their extended schedule. The only teams right now I would expect most other teams in the league to beat would be Plymouth and Manchester. London would probably be expected to beat the bottom 5 teams, but have tougher games against the rest. I just can’t help but notice that the people that seem to be really negative about London and 777, are Leicester fans. It’s interesting. On another note: Caledonia have added what looks like a very exciting signing to their roster, as Dubose looks set to be out for the rest of the season. |
|
|
|
Post by spacejammer on Feb 14, 2024 8:50:02 GMT
I'm not sure what BBL league your referring to but seeing how far ahead Lions are I wouldn't exactly say this was the closest I have seen the league or believe anyone can beat anyone. Although from what people have suggested with the salary cap vs no cap it seems like for the league it is a lose lose either way. As without the salary cap unless the team with the unlimited resource budget like the Lions was to agree not to take advantage of it which why wouldn't you. It seems like the only way to make it competive is we would need more people to invest which I'm not sure is going to happen unless someone like Man City invested in a team and then others joined. On the flip side of things re introducing the salary cap and putting limits will cause the star talent of Lions to leave but then less likely to encourage top level talent to even consider the BBL. I think the way I look at it is their is a solid argument for both sides for why we should and shouldn't have a salary cap. That being said I think the only fair way it could maybe work is with 777 owning the league only and not owning a team instead for starters that way we wouldnt be able to say they are fixing the league to suit them. That being said if that was to be agreed who would be willing to take over fund a team to play in EuroCup and the BBL? And when this season is done will any more revenue or owners come into this league? 21-22 season Leicester finished with a 25-2 record, 2nd place was Sheffield on 17-10. Did people moan that season? The bbl is competitive this year. London have shown they can be beaten, especially due to their extended schedule. The only teams right now I would expect most other teams in the league to beat would be Plymouth and Manchester. London would probably be expected to beat the bottom 5 teams, but have tougher games against the rest. I just can’t help but notice that the people that seem to be really negative about London and 777, are Leicester fans. It’s interesting. On another note: Caledonia have added what looks like a very exciting signing to their roster, as Dubose looks set to be out for the rest of the season. When Newcastle and Leicester were dominating they weren't constantly buying and signing Ex NBA players and high calibre players during the course of the season. And they would keep the same squad throughout the season. Lions the second they lose players they sign another powerhouse player. If the budgets were flipped and Newcastle or Leicester were doing what Lions are doing would London really be happy? |
|
|
|
Post by erj14 on Feb 14, 2024 8:54:31 GMT
Newcastle and Leicester did their winning on the same playing field as the rest though. London are doing it while outspending the rest of the league put together, several times over. I wouldn't have an issue with this if they were selling out the Copperbox, with big sponsorship deals (they have NOTHING on their jerseys, how!?!) and helping put down proper community roots in London. But they aren't and are accruing huge losses. The sad truth is that it's pretty likely what they're doing at the moment will put them out of business at some point in the future. Leicester got competitive by using one of the U.K. best university’s to offer academic options for players whilst also playing professional sport. If you were to look at the players they have had over the years that have also studied and played, you’d be surprised. I would expect that this helped them to get good talent within the salary cap at the time. London have created some great relationships with brands and collaborations. I’d expect sponsorship to come. What’s to know that there have been offers but they have been declined by London? The partnership with StockX was a great move. I am not sure where you are getting your information regarding not putting down community roots? I have seen them do nothing but offer more to the local London community’s. As for selling out the Copper Box…. They are doing a pretty good job. Crowd numbers are up hugely on previous seasons. Do remember they are playing extremely more fixtures then other BBL teams, so the cost for fans to attend games is a lot greater. That being said, the Copper box is always looking pretty well filled. Sorry, I should've been specific. They aren't filling the Copperbox with full ticket price paying fans. There is no way the money they bring in is enough to cover the money going out at the moment. Not even close. I'm not sure how deep their community stuff goes. I've just had a look on their website and can't find any signposting to junior basketball clubs. So if I take my son to a game and he enjoys it, where are their affiliated junior clubs? Not sure why they don't have shirt sponsors, surely that should have been their priority 2 summers ago? Just to be clear, this criticism comes from a good place. I don't want Lions to go under and want a successful basketball club in the capital. It just frustrates me that they aren't doing what I consider to be essential things to be a sustainable business. |
|
|
|
Post by dexter on Feb 14, 2024 9:14:14 GMT
Leicester got competitive by using one of the U.K. best university’s to offer academic options for players whilst also playing professional sport. If you were to look at the players they have had over the years that have also studied and played, you’d be surprised. I would expect that this helped them to get good talent within the salary cap at the time. London have created some great relationships with brands and collaborations. I’d expect sponsorship to come. What’s to know that there have been offers but they have been declined by London? The partnership with StockX was a great move. I am not sure where you are getting your information regarding not putting down community roots? I have seen them do nothing but offer more to the local London community’s. As for selling out the Copper Box…. They are doing a pretty good job. Crowd numbers are up hugely on previous seasons. Do remember they are playing extremely more fixtures then other BBL teams, so the cost for fans to attend games is a lot greater. That being said, the Copper box is always looking pretty well filled. Sorry, I should've been specific. They aren't filling the Copperbox with full ticket price paying fans. There is no way the money they bring in is enough to cover the money going out at the moment. Not even close. I'm not sure how deep their community stuff goes. I've just had a look on their website and can't find any signposting to junior basketball clubs. So if I take my son to a game and he enjoys it, where are their affiliated junior clubs? Not sure why they don't have shirt sponsors, surely that should have been their priority 2 summers ago? Just to be clear, this criticism comes from a good place. I don't want Lions to go under and want a successful basketball club in the capital. It just frustrates me that they aren't doing what I consider to be essential things to be a sustainable business. I can't believe they're compliant with Euroleague's Financial Fair Play rules. |
|
|
|
Post by milehigh on Feb 14, 2024 10:31:11 GMT
There is plenty of evidence of 777 failing to comply with laws and financial regulations in many countries.
I do wonder if they are currently meeting all their financial liabilities and paying HMRC and suppliers on time.
Doubting the credibility of 777 has nothing to do with the teams people support, it is just using lifes experience to see when a company is totally dishonest and disreputable.
For the record, I do not support Riders, or any other BBL team.
|
|
|
|
Post by erj14 on Feb 14, 2024 10:53:58 GMT
There is plenty of evidence of 777 failing to comply with laws and financial regulations in many countries. I do wonder if they are currently meeting all their financial liabilities and paying HMRC and suppliers on time. Doubting the credibility of 777 has nothing to do with the teams people support, it is just using lifes experience to see when a company is totally dishonest and disreputable. For the record, I do not support Riders, or any other BBL team. Jealousy is often the word used when London fans try and defend Lions/777, when I think most make very fair accusations of Lions/777 based on facts. I couldn't be less jealous of Lions, and would hate a similar thing to happen up here in Newcastle. I much prefer the sustainable/community club based approach, don't like the 'investment' model at all, unless it's spent on tangible infrastructure. |
|
|
|
Post by LTfan on Feb 14, 2024 10:56:54 GMT
I agree with that. 777 owning the Lions and the BBL is not a good look and I would like that to go change so they have the same amount of ownership as the rest of the teams in the League. I don’t think their plan was to ever buy a share of the league, but it turned out to be more of a necessity. Fingers crossed more investment comes into the league and they can step back from the role of shareholder. I don’t think you would need to ask them twice to do this! That's an important point that is often overlooked or forgotten about. I really don't think 777 Partners want to co-own the British Basketball League. 777 Partners want to own London Lions, and turn them into one of the biggest teams in European basketball. But it became clear quite early on that if they're to do that, and London Lions are to still play in the BBL, then 777 Partners were going to need greater control over the league, e.g. no salary cap. If a big time investor came along tomorrow wanting to buy out 777 Partners ownership stake in the league then I don't think anyone on either side would be against it. It would be one less responsibility/financial burden for 777 Partners. The only big question would be where that leaves London Lions and the BBL - would the league still want them in it (and therefore continue with no salary cap) or would London Lions go it alone with EuroCup (something I suspect 777 Partners may be more open to now than they were before)? |
|
|
|
Post by dexter on Feb 14, 2024 11:12:00 GMT
I agree with that. 777 owning the Lions and the BBL is not a good look and I would like that to go change so they have the same amount of ownership as the rest of the teams in the League. I don’t think their plan was to ever buy a share of the league, but it turned out to be more of a necessity. Fingers crossed more investment comes into the league and they can step back from the role of shareholder. I don’t think you would need to ask them twice to do this! That's an important point that is often overlooked or forgotten about. I really don't think 777 Partners want to co-own the British Basketball League. 777 Partners want to own London Lions, and turn them into one of the biggest teams in European basketball. But it became clear quite early on that if they're to do that, and London Lions are to still play in the BBL, then 777 Partners were going to need greater control over the league, e.g. no salary cap. If a big time investor came along tomorrow wanting to buy out 777 Partners ownership stake in the league then I don't think anyone on either side would be against it. It would be one less responsibility/financial burden for 777 Partners. The only big question would be where that leaves London Lions and the BBL - would the league still want them in it (and therefore continue with no salary cap) or would London Lions go it alone with EuroCup (something I suspect 777 Partners may be more open to now than they were before)? I commented earlier, it has been announced that BC Dubai will be playing in both Euroleague and ABA League next season (which I assume is a weekend league). That could be an option for London Lions. It's a bit far, but it's just as far for BC Dubai and it's not nearly as far as having an NBA team in London which some people have previously suggested. ABA League is a very high standard and has possibly the biggest fan bases and probably the most passionate of any league. |
|
|
|
Post by milehigh on Feb 14, 2024 11:12:34 GMT
I've no doubt that 777's Shill will be along shortly to make yet another totally illogical defennse of their actions.
While the BBL is owned & controleld by 777 no honest ethical company would want to be come involved, not take on the debt created by 777. As previously stated, there have to be doubts about 777 meeting their financial and legal responsibilities. I would not be surprised if suppliers insist on full payment in advance from any company associated with 777.
|
|
|
|
Post by LTfan on Feb 14, 2024 11:23:34 GMT
I've no doubt that 777's Shill will be along shortly to make yet another totally illogical defennse of their actions. While the BBL is owned & controlled by 777 no honest ethical company would want to be come involved, not take on the debt created by 777. As previously stated, there have to be doubts about 777 meeting their financial and legal responsibilities. I would not be surprised if suppliers insist on full payment in advance from any company associated with 777. Out of interest, what would you like to see realistically happen? |
|
|
|
Post by milehigh on Feb 14, 2024 11:48:39 GMT
The best way for the furture of a sustainable league, from the current situation, would be the collapse/withdrawal of 777, and the remaining 7 clubs, possibly with some of the leading NBL sides, forming a "NewBBL", that has financial stability and sustainability at the core of it's values and regulations, that will include a strict salary cap, to prevent the repetition of the current situation.
The league has recovered and rebuilt before, this is a new opportunity to do so, and do it the right way.
|
|
|
|
Post by LTfan on Feb 14, 2024 11:54:41 GMT
The best way for the furture of a sustainable league, from the current situation, would be the collapse/withdrawal of 777, and the remaining 7 clubs, possibly with some of the leading NBL sides, forming a "NewBBL", that has financial stability and sustainability at the core of it's values and regulations, that will include a strict salary cap, to prevent the repetition of the current situation. The league has recovered and rebuilt before, this is a new opportunity to do so, and do it the right way. And in that scenario, if someone like Man City wanted to buy the Manchester Giants franchise and turn them into a European powerhouse, the 'New BBL' should turn away such investment? I'm not arguing with you, just highlighting how complex the situation is (which I'm sure you already know). |
|
|
|
Post by milehigh on Feb 14, 2024 12:36:36 GMT
All clubs in the league would agree to abide by the rules of the league, I'm sure there would be nothing to stop a club signing a totally different side to enter into a european competition, if that competitions rules allowed that.
|
|
jt
Sixth Man
Posts: 218
|
Post by jt on Feb 14, 2024 13:04:59 GMT
That's an important point that is often overlooked or forgotten about. I really don't think 777 Partners want to co-own the British Basketball League. 777 Partners want to own London Lions, and turn them into one of the biggest teams in European basketball. But it became clear quite early on that if they're to do that, and London Lions are to still play in the BBL, then 777 Partners were going to need greater control over the league, e.g. no salary cap. If a big time investor came along tomorrow wanting to buy out 777 Partners ownership stake in the league then I don't think anyone on either side would be against it. It would be one less responsibility/financial burden for 777 Partners. The only big question would be where that leaves London Lions and the BBL - would the league still want them in it (and therefore continue with no salary cap) or would London Lions go it alone with EuroCup (something I suspect 777 Partners may be more open to now than they were before)? I commented earlier, it has been announced that BC Dubai will be playing in both Euroleague and ABA League next season (which I assume is a weekend league). That could be an option for London Lions. It's a bit far, but it's just as far for BC Dubai and it's not nearly as far as having an NBA team in London which some people have previously suggested. ABA League is a very high standard and has possibly the biggest fan bases and probably the most passionate of any league. FYI this hasn't been decided yet. Both ABA and Euroleague are still to vote on it. From what I've seen Euroleague seem to be in favour whereas ABA aren't as much. |
|
|
|
Post by eillo23 on Feb 14, 2024 13:12:06 GMT
The best way for the furture of a sustainable league, from the current situation, would be the collapse/withdrawal of 777, and the remaining 7 clubs, possibly with some of the leading NBL sides, forming a "NewBBL", that has financial stability and sustainability at the core of it's values and regulations, that will include a strict salary cap, to prevent the repetition of the current situation. The league has recovered and rebuilt before, this is a new opportunity to do so, and do it the right way. How depressing. |
|
|
|
Post by erj14 on Feb 14, 2024 13:17:22 GMT
The best way for the furture of a sustainable league, from the current situation, would be the collapse/withdrawal of 777, and the remaining 7 clubs, possibly with some of the leading NBL sides, forming a "NewBBL", that has financial stability and sustainability at the core of it's values and regulations, that will include a strict salary cap, to prevent the repetition of the current situation. The league has recovered and rebuilt before, this is a new opportunity to do so, and do it the right way. And in that scenario, if someone like Man City wanted to buy the Manchester Giants franchise and turn them into a European powerhouse, the 'New BBL' should turn away such investment? I'm not arguing with you, just highlighting how complex the situation is (which I'm sure you already know). My stance on that hypothetical Man City situation is that basketball in this country just isn't ready for that type of team yet. It could be one day, but at the moment even if you had a team with a £25 million eager budget, it's not going to resonate with the wider public. I'd much rather see a league of comparable clubs to Eagles/Riders/Gladiators/Sharks/Phoenix than have one or two superclubs competing in EuroLeague. |
|
|
|
Post by milehigh on Feb 14, 2024 13:24:27 GMT
There is nothing depressing in having a truly fair and competitive British league, where the competitive balance is not distored by one side having a budget many times larger than the other sides.
For the sport to genuinely grow in this country, the league has to be well run, financially stable and sustainable. Also, having convicted criminals on the board is not a good look when aiming the sport at young people.
Obviously the 777 Shill is paid to state otherwise.
|
|
