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Post by D44 on Feb 14, 2024 14:13:35 GMT
There is nothing depressing in haviving a truly fair and competitive British league, where the competitive balance is not distored by one side having a budget many times larger than the other sides. For the sport to genuinely grow in this country, the league has to be well run, financially stable and sustainable. Also, having convicted criminals on the board is not a good look when aiming the sport at young people. Obviously the 777 Shill is paid to state otherwise. Out of interest (and I'm not not using this to defend 777) has the league ever been that? Is any professional sports league that? Was the league fair and competitive when Eagles did two quadruples and won probably 50% of all available trophies for near enough 15 years whilst winning (guessing) 70% of their games? Was it fair and competitive when Giants and Leeds Force were having to play Eagles whilst they were effectively unpaid Uni teams? Then there's the salary cap everyone keeps going on about which to my knowledge was never actually enforced anyway? And how many professional sports clubs are 'sustainable'? Ie they sit on huge cash reserves or passive incomes in case a wealthy backer or sponsor pulls out? |
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Post by LTfan on Feb 14, 2024 14:17:49 GMT
All clubs in the league would agree to abide by the rules of the league, I'm sure there would be nothing to stop a club signing a totally different side to enter into a european competition, if that competitions rules allowed that. And if investors aren't happy to do that, as it appears 777 Partners weren't, the league should simply turn away such investment? Dammed if you do, dammed if you don't. |
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Post by LTfan on Feb 14, 2024 14:20:20 GMT
There is nothing depressing in haviving a truly fair and competitive British league, where the competitive balance is not distored by one side having a budget many times larger than the other sides. For the sport to genuinely grow in this country, the league has to be well run, financially stable and sustainable. Also, having convicted criminals on the board is not a good look when aiming the sport at young people. Obviously the 777 Shill is paid to state otherwise. Are we forgetting the league hasn't been that for many, many years? As I've said many times before, the league accepting investment from 777 Partners was more necessity than choice. |
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Post by LTfan on Feb 14, 2024 14:23:34 GMT
I commented earlier, it has been announced that BC Dubai will be playing in both Euroleague and ABA League next season (which I assume is a weekend league). That could be an option for London Lions. It's a bit far, but it's just as far for BC Dubai and it's not nearly as far as having an NBA team in London which some people have previously suggested. ABA League is a very high standard and has possibly the biggest fan bases and probably the most passionate of any league. FYI this hasn't been decided yet. Both ABA and Euroleague are still to vote on it. From what I've seen Euroleague seem to be in favour whereas ABA aren't as much. What I've taken from all this is that Euroleague (and therefore EuroCup) insist on every team playing in another 'domestic' league alongside Euroleague... even if you've got the mega money like Dubai BC. I've always wondered if they'd allow a team just to play in Euroleague, and now I know the answer. |
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Post by dexter on Feb 14, 2024 14:39:44 GMT
FYI this hasn't been decided yet. Both ABA and Euroleague are still to vote on it. From what I've seen Euroleague seem to be in favour whereas ABA aren't as much. What I've taken from all this is that Euroleague (and therefore EuroCup) insist on every team playing in another 'domestic' league alongside Euroleague... even if you've got the mega money like Dubai BC. I've always wondered if they'd allow a team just to play in Euroleague, and now I know the answer. I think the problem with that is what are the players going to do at the weekend? Euroleague is a midweek competition. A team in Euroleague and no domestic competition would be underemployed, and also unviable because their only ticket sales would be for Euroleague games. The teams of the former Yugoslavia play in ABA League, mostly because their country Balkanised. But this does create the potential for other teams like Dubai BC and Lions Lions that don't have a very strong domestic leagues to join that league. I don't know if that's a good idea or not but it's definitely a possibility. It would elevate ABA League and make it more valuable for TV deals. I could imagine TNT Sports broadcasting that. Apparently there's a London to Belgrade flight that takes less than 3 hours. All I would say is that doesn't sound as implausible as 777 Partners's goal of making BBL the second biggest basketball league after the NBA. That's not going to happen, but the ABA League with London Lions and Dubai BC could be that league. |
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Post by dexter on Feb 14, 2024 17:45:34 GMT
The more I think about it the more it makes sense. Just talking regular season games, this season London Lions have 36 BBL Championship, 4 BBL Trophy and 18 EuroCup. 58 regular season games.
An ABA League / Euroleague team like Partisan has 26 ABA League games and 34 Euroleague games. 60 in total.
Of course these numbers can change if numbers of teams in leagues change, but still, if London Lions joins Euroleague they will have about double the number of European games they have now. They will have too many games. Compared to BBL ABA League has fewer games at a higher standard. One game per weekend not two.
The owners must at least be thinking about it. They must realise by now it will take a very long time to grow the BBL to anything close to Europe's big leagues. Right now it's not growing at all.
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benji
Sixth Man
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Post by benji on Feb 14, 2024 18:02:35 GMT
That’s normally how business's run yes, by borrowing money. You’re in for a shock if you are just realising this 😅especially in venture capital. I get that! I still think it's an important distinction to be made. |
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Post by everard on Feb 14, 2024 19:06:02 GMT
Just checking. It is Feb 14th not April 1st isn't it?
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Post by spacejammer on Feb 14, 2024 22:19:30 GMT
There is nothing depressing in haviving a truly fair and competitive British league, where the competitive balance is not distored by one side having a budget many times larger than the other sides. For the sport to genuinely grow in this country, the league has to be well run, financially stable and sustainable. Also, having convicted criminals on the board is not a good look when aiming the sport at young people. Obviously the 777 Shill is paid to state otherwise. Out of interest (and I'm not not using this to defend 777) has the league ever been that? Is any professional sports league that? Was the league fair and competitive when Eagles did two quadruples and won probably 50% of all available trophies for near enough 15 years whilst winning (guessing) 70% of their games? Was it fair and competitive when Giants and Leeds Force were having to play Eagles whilst they were effectively unpaid Uni teams? Then there's the salary cap everyone keeps going on about which to my knowledge was never actually enforced anyway? And how many professional sports clubs are 'sustainable'? Ie they sit on huge cash reserves or passive incomes in case a wealthy backer or sponsor pulls out? I think the hitting back against Lions and 777 probably is a mixture of realising but for some fans it probably is jealously. I'm not going lie I'm a tad bit envious of Lions being in Eurocup and successful but at the same time if this results in their eventual extinction or becoming a shadow of themselves if 777 walks away or is kicked out then I would be thankful not the be a Lions fan. As for Lions community stuff and crowds it would be unfair for anyone outside the Lions fans to comment on this as for all we know they might do more for the community. And from the sounds of things when it comes to the socials it sounds like they have improved on this compared to the first season. The only other thing going back to Leeds/Manchester and Leicester/Newcastle examples. That is a fair point but the thing I think your forgetting is at that point in time Leeds and Manchester the resurection were fairly new franchises at that point. So ofcourse a new team was going to always struggle against an experience Eagles or Riders organisation that had been around and living in the BBL for years. But in future seasons they were able to catch to become more competive with experience and both teams were eventually able to beat us when the field wasn't completely unbalanced. I think again we're not asking for everything to balanced and know it never will be as someone has to win and someone has to come last. Some organisations will be more established, bigger and some will be less established or smaller. It is a fact across all leagues and sports. But when you have one team that has to much power and are to strong it does kill the excitement though. And if only Lions are running ahead and leaving behind the rest of the league then as an overall product it may becoming boring. |
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Post by D44 on Feb 14, 2024 22:37:33 GMT
I fail to see the distinction between our Eagles (or Riders to an extent) former dominance and Lions current dominance TBH. Any argument saying that was good/acceptable but Lions is bad doesn't stack up as it's exactly the same thing.
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Post by baldeagle on Feb 14, 2024 22:56:47 GMT
I fail to see the distinction between our Eagles (or Riders to an extent) former dominance and Lions current dominance TBH. Any argument saying that was good/acceptable but Lions is bad doesn't stack up as it's exactly the same thing. The distinction is one of financial resources. During their periods of dominance I’m pretty certain that Eagles’ budget was rarely if ever the highest budget, and I’d hazard a guess that the same was true for Riders. Yes, in both cases they were one of the 2/3 highest budgets in the league most seasons, but they didn’t dominate financially. Their success came from building a nucleus of returning players who made their homes in Newcastle/ Leicester & accepted a trade-off of less cash for more certainty etc. Newcastle & Leicester never dominated the league in financial terms - which in Newcastle’s case is why they were never able to compete in Europe. The Lions/777 model is very different. There will be a number of current Lions players whose individual salary for the season exceeds the cost of every other squad in the league. I’d be surprised if the aggregate of all the other teams’ budgets exceeds Lions’ budget for the year, a fact that makes Cheshire’s Trophy success even greater. But that is the difference with the past, and explains much of the negativity about the Lions. I doubt anyone feels hostile to any of the Lions players, who are being paid their market rate (or more perhaps in some cases) but the financial imbalance of the league, and the added complexity/ conflicts arising from 777’s investment in the league itself, explains why this is very different from anything we’ve seen for many years. And of course there’s a suspicion or fear that London might be a bubble that will burst. Worth noting that their accounts are now 6 weeks late at Companies House…….. |
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Post by erj14 on Feb 15, 2024 0:52:17 GMT
I fail to see the distinction between our Eagles (or Riders to an extent) former dominance and Lions current dominance TBH. Any argument saying that was good/acceptable but Lions is bad doesn't stack up as it's exactly the same thing. Are you being serious? There is a very clear difference between Riders/Eagles periods of success and what Lions are doing now. There has never been such a financial disparity between one team and the rest of the league as there is right now. You could probably fund an entire BBL roster for several seasons just on what Dekker is being paid alone. Lions are financially in a different stratosphere compared to the rest, its not even close. Riders/Eagles dominance came from sound financial planning and sustainable growth over many seasons, as well as exceptional coaching and team building relative to budget. It's far from being the same thing. Not to say Bozic isn't a good coach, he obviously is. As I've said already, if Lions spending was in line with what they were bringing in I'd have no problem with their level of dominance. But when it's built on sand and putting the very existence of the club at risk, it really fucks me off. They're London City Royals all over again, but on a much bigger scale. |
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Post by cosbyrider on Feb 15, 2024 11:56:54 GMT
What I've taken from all this is that Euroleague (and therefore EuroCup) insist on every team playing in another 'domestic' league alongside Euroleague... even if you've got the mega money like Dubai BC. I've always wondered if they'd allow a team just to play in Euroleague, and now I know the answer. I think the problem with that is what are the players going to do at the weekend? Euroleague is a midweek competition. A team in Euroleague and no domestic competition would be underemployed, and also unviable because their only ticket sales would be for Euroleague games. The teams of the former Yugoslavia play in ABA League, mostly because their country Balkanised. But this does create the potential for other teams like Dubai BC and Lions Lions that don't have a very strong domestic leagues to join that league. I don't know if that's a good idea or not but it's definitely a possibility. It would elevate ABA League and make it more valuable for TV deals. I could imagine TNT Sports broadcasting that. Apparently there's a London to Belgrade flight that takes less than 3 hours. All I would say is that doesn't sound as implausible as 777 Partners's goal of making BBL the second biggest basketball league after the NBA. That's not going to happen, but the ABA League with London Lions and Dubai BC could be that league. Increasingly not the case as time goes on - a lot of teams prefer Friday night fixtures - but then the domestic leagues get Sundays as the main evening. Works really well in leagues where they have large numbers and play each other twice. |
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Post by cosbyrider on Feb 15, 2024 12:08:00 GMT
Btw I think principally my issue with Lions comes from a basis that it's not fair - but the argument that other leagues are like this is principally correct.
My other issue is that I honestly don't think Basketball in the UK becomes successful as whole if Lions end up in the EuroLeague etc etc. The sport desperately needs the grass roots to be very strong and the investment should be about securing an improving GB team which awakens far more awareness. That gap from the top of the UK game to the bottom has further been extended by Lions. The path of a grass roots player into the top of the BBL pre-Lions was possible but that looks further away with the Lions who are likely to sign a more experienced player.
The detachment between the nation basketball organisations and the BBL as two separate entities is an absolute killer for the future success of the sport in GB. Lions being all razzle dazzle won't change that. Rather I find sad that badly needed money ends up in a pure business vehicle.
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Post by D44 on Feb 15, 2024 12:08:33 GMT
No team in the league is 'sustainable' reckon Eagles and Riders are sitting on huge cash reserves? Nope, they spend what they can each season. London just have far deeper pockets. Would I be concerned if I was a Lions fan that the investors run out of money? Sure, but we have no idea when that will be or how far they're prepared to go.
And the financial disparity argument doesn't stack up as their used to be unpaid Uni teams in the league as I said before. I haven't seen Lions putting 148 points on a team like Eagles did against Leeds a few seasons ago.
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Post by cosbyrider on Feb 15, 2024 12:11:07 GMT
No team in the league is 'sustainable' reckon Eagles and Riders are sitting on huge cash reserves? Nope, they spend what they can each season. London just have far deeper pockets. Would I be concerned if I was a Lions fan that the investors run out of money? Sure, but we have no idea when that will be or how far they're prepared to go. And the financial disparity argument doesn't stack up as their used to be unpaid Uni teams in the league as I said before. I haven't seen Lions putting 148 points on a team like Eagles did against Leeds a few seasons ago. No they don't but both clubs in that example have assets of their own which argue Lions don't. E.g. their own arenas and with it the income streams. Find it baffling that 777 are only just at the stage of it dawning that having ownership of the Copper Box would be a big step. And having been Virtus this weekend if they are also cash rich, find a warehouse and build the arena - at least then you make it completely your home. |
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Post by eillo23 on Feb 15, 2024 12:29:17 GMT
Btw I think principally my issue with Lions comes from a basis that it's not fair - but the argument that other leagues are like this is principally correct. My other issue is that I honestly don't think Basketball in the UK becomes successful as whole if Lions end up in the EuroLeague etc etc. The sport desperately needs the grass roots to be very strong and the investment should be about securing an improving GB team which awakens far more awareness. That gap from the top of the UK game to the bottom has further been extended by Lions. The path of a grass roots player into the top of the BBL pre-Lions was possible but that looks further away with the Lions who are likely to sign a more experienced player. The detachment between the nation basketball organisations and the BBL as two separate entities is an absolute killer for the future success of the sport in GB. Lions being all razzle dazzle won't change that. Rather I find sad that badly needed money ends up in a pure business vehicle. Completely agree with you here that Basketball in the UK requires more funding and a better grass roots system. But that's not a Lions or 777 problem. It has been like this for years and it never seems to change. Every now and then the GB funding movement gains traction but that soon fizzles out. Our best opportunity was around the 2012 Olympics. With the likes of Luol Deng bringing attention to British Basketball, Unfortunately again it just fizzled out without any gain. If the BBL was in a better place then, I believe GB basketball would be in a great place by now. That didn't happen and arguably its in the shittest state it has been for years. Things like Jeremy Sochan choosing Poland over GB doesn't seem like much, but again its such a huge blow. I don't see a problem with a team like London being in the BBL. Arguably Caledonia may be looking the best option to challenge them in coming seasons, and who knows if investment will come into other teams. Ok the funding/running of London can be scrutinised and as with anything, negatives can be found. But purely on a Basketball sense, I see it as a wholly positive situation, as long as things with 777 dont go to shit. ( I dont have a crystal ball, so can only live in the now). The reintroduction of a Salary cap in my eyes makes the league unattractive to outside audiences. How do you want the league and British basketball to grow when playing at a low standard with low standard players. I get that for loyal fans of other teams in the league it may seem unfair. We live in a digital world now and even the little things of having players signing for teams with 200k followers on their socials is so huge for marketing and brand awareness. Personally if things with 777 go bad and the league is reduced to 7 teams or nothing and a rebuild is required, I will find it hard to watch after what we are witnessing right now. That's if we could even be able to watch it!! IF the league can bring in investment and sponsorships, I honestly think this will be great for British Basketball as a whole. I don't think 777 ever looked at this as a short term thing, it could never be. The league as a whole has improved over the last two years, which is still a short period of time as a whole. If they are still involved at the 5 year mark, i have not doubt the league will be in a completely different place. Positive, not negative. I can understand the negativity around 777. The press they have been getting has been terrible, and if they don't get approval at Everton then the outlook doesn't look great. But if they do, then what? |
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Post by tallerman on Feb 15, 2024 12:42:26 GMT
So, will anyone buy Manchester or Plymouth?
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Post by eillo23 on Feb 15, 2024 12:45:01 GMT
Going back to the original subject of this post... I feel Manchester will be ok. I would be surprised if we do not learn about investment this off season. Another season of Manchester being propped up by the league will not be great.
Unfortunately I am struggling to see how Plymouth stay around. Which is sad as they have a great fan base. I just don't see it as an attractive investment. we have Bristol in the West, and with their plans for a new arena, I fill this ticks off that area of the map.
I would love to see a franchise in Belfast, I feel that could be great for the League. The same with a Cardiff franchise. I would happily see either of these locations replace Plymouth. And then you of course have Birmingham. Probably one of the ideal locations for a new franchise.
I really hope things work out, as if they do then in 5-10 years the league could be in an exceptional place.
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Post by dexter on Feb 15, 2024 12:54:04 GMT
So, will anyone buy Manchester or Plymouth? Manchester has everything going for it. Plymouth has nothing going for it except for fans and history. That's probably not enough. Manchester will keep going, or possibly collapse when 777 Partners collapses but re-emerge quickly. Plymouth is probably doomed. No one is buying these clubs from 777 Partners. |
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