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Post by cosbyrider on May 12, 2023 11:26:46 GMT
the suggestion that the disparity between Leicester and the rest (previously) and London and the rest now is the same is utterly nuts. Londons playing budget this year is sensibly estimated at £6m. No other team will touch £500k Bit different to £300k vs £200k Unless other corporates or multi-millionaires decide to back BBL clubs then London are going to dominate as long as 777 choose to back Lions. For me the big question is whether the BBL will grow its fanbase. Watching one team sweep away all others every season sounds as if it will only make Lions supporters happy - and even they may may get bored with little real opposition. Also, will sponsors of other teams decide it's pointless to continue handing over cash if it's such an uneven playing field? Would Glasgow have won their silverware if Lions hadn't in effect decided to put out a massively weakened team earlier in the competition? It’s a big call for an investor to put up money for a business where your your biggest competition for trophies also runs the league/competition. Salary cap was one of those ways to level off the accusation of favouritism. Equally I question the end goal of the Lions as along as they are in a situation where four or five times a season they can’t play at their home court. How do you build a fanbase and then alienate them when you get to playoff time? |
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Post by naenia on May 12, 2023 12:13:54 GMT
I'm fairly convinced 777 just wants to get Lions into Euroleague and then the investment in the rest of the league will follow ... somehow ... from somewhere ...
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Post by ScottishBasketballFan on May 12, 2023 14:47:33 GMT
I don't see how London could compete in Euroleague
Yes, they have an Arena but with the quality possessed by the teams already in it then I fail to see who would sign for a team from an inferior league that would make them competitive enough to hang with the big boys.
I'm just trying to look at it from a credibility standpoint. It's all well and good to say put them in but at what points do you think, is it really worth it to get hammered every game, then again this is the same crowd that thinks the BBL can be the 2nd biggest league in the World.
I'll believe it when I see it
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Post by spacejammer on May 12, 2023 16:04:28 GMT
I think the YouTube coverage is great most of the time and I tend to use it to watch all my teams away games. And its probably a great way to get tbe sport out there. Although I'm surprised they don't shout about it more on Sky Sports though. In terms of coverage as well I think the men's game is doing well and I like the new BBL Show even though there are less shows now. As I think it would be a good way to give both current and new fans an insight into teams. The only thing I think more coverage could be used for is to get 1 weekly more WBBL game. I know they get the finals games on tv but I think it's hard for teams that don't make it to finals to gain notoriety if their isn't a weekly game on TV. When I listened to the BBL Show annaul International women's day podcast I did enjoy it and understood what they were saying Although when they were making comparisons to the men's game. I did think that it was worth pointing out that the men's team isn't exactly spoilt with riches and still trying to grow as well. But I do think more games would be good for both the BBL and WBBL. We are way behind on the Women’s game. Particularly when consider Team GB are competitive at international level. Simply not enough song and dance about it. Clubs on the whole could do a lot more Your not wrong there and to be honest I feel a little guilty in this as I rarely attend any Eagles women's matches. I think I have only been to about 3 or 4 live ones. However I did think a good idea for the Sky deal would be if they could somehow get a weekly slot or a more regular slot to show atleast 1 WBBL a week. I know that finding a slot exactly would be the tricky bit and more likely as a recorded match to show later would probably be easier for them to do. Because right now whilst it is better then nothing I think for the women's game having only 3 grand final games on TV does very little to promote the WBBL. And let's be honest most teams other then London would have a much harder time gaining any notierity since the Lions have been at every WBBL final in the past 2 seasons and won everything. |
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Post by SamH on May 12, 2023 16:34:09 GMT
If 777 are the only big investors medium/ long term then they might realise that this is not going to work. Hopefully we never reach that position. I really hope that's not their plan. Surely it should be about creating sustainable clubs who spend what they earn. I understand that in sports, some clubs will have wealthy benefactors who are happy to post losses. But that can't be the expectation for every team. I mostly like what 777 have done so far, so I'm more than happy to see how this pans out. I suppose worst case scenario is we end up back where we pretty much are now, should 777 think they've had enough. Thing is, that is exactly why there is usually a salary cap in place, to ensure a level and competitive playing field! Even the NBA has one and it seems to work pretty well there, i.e. you don't have always the same old teams at the top year after year (obviously the draft helps with this too, giving the best new players to the worst teams, but the cap definitely is the main thing). Why 8 of the other 9 agreed to abolish the cap, I don't know. It would seem obvious to me that if you know your budget is smaller than others, and there is no limit on their spending, they are going to assemble a much better team than you can. It could be re-introduced of course, but I would think more likely would be 777 realising that the league isn't competitive and rather than restrict spending (and thus making Lions and perhaps 1 or 2 others not as good on the court) they would look to find other means of increasing spend for the remaining teams. What about the shared revenue from TV and so on? Isn't that meant to be divied up in such a way that the 'poorer' clubs get a bigger share? |
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Post by massiveridersfan on May 12, 2023 18:16:12 GMT
I really hope that's not their plan. Surely it should be about creating sustainable clubs who spend what they earn. I understand that in sports, some clubs will have wealthy benefactors who are happy to post losses. But that can't be the expectation for every team. I mostly like what 777 have done so far, so I'm more than happy to see how this pans out. I suppose worst case scenario is we end up back where we pretty much are now, should 777 think they've had enough. Thing is, that is exactly why there is usually a salary cap in place, to ensure a level and competitive playing field! Even the NBA has one and it seems to work pretty well there, i.e. you don't have always the same old teams at the top year after year (obviously the draft helps with this too, giving the best new players to the worst teams, but the cap definitely is the main thing). Why 8 of the other 9 agreed to abolish the cap, I don't know. It would seem obvious to me that if you know your budget is smaller than others, and there is no limit on their spending, they are going to assemble a much better team than you can. It could be re-introduced of course, but I would think more likely would be 777 realising that the league isn't competitive and rather than restrict spending (and thus making Lions and perhaps 1 or 2 others not as good on the court) they would look to find other means of increasing spend for the remaining teams. What about the shared revenue from TV and so on? Isn't that meant to be divied up in such a way that the 'poorer' clubs get a bigger share? What shared revenue? Bugger all shared out between the clubs is bugger all. I doubt there's any revenue to BE shared anyway. |
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Post by Stephen Abootman on May 12, 2023 18:19:30 GMT
Claiming that Riders have had a comparable competitive advantage over the last 5-10 years to Lions now has got to be the most batshit crazy thing tallerman has ever said. I know Riders isn't his favourite club but to discredit what they've achieved domestically to that extent really is a bit much. Riders have never won anything by default. In fact I'd be very surprised if there haven't been seasons (including probably the last two) where we've been the BBL's best team without being it's biggest spenders. We won our first treble with Taylor, Couisnard, Losonsky, Rowe, Calvo... Lions are (probably) about to win theirs with a bunch of top level European players and guys who've played multiple seasons in the NBA. Sorry but anyone who see's those two achievements as remotely the same thing needs their head examined. If you want to argue that watching Lions dominate British basketball for the next 5+ years will be no more boring for most than what Riders have done the last 5+, that's fine. But to pretend that they're the same thing from a competitive standpoint is absolutely outrageous. As to whether what 777 are doing is ultimately good for the BBL, I'll reserve judgement for now. It all comes down to whether this trickle down theory actually works in practice. If Lions spending unprecedented sums of money on players and competing in the upper echelons of Europe does turn heads and attract wider investment in the league. And the end result is a financially stronger BBL top to bottom, great. It's well worth sacrificing a bit of short term competitiveness to achieve that. If it doesn't work, all we're really gonna end up with is a dull, non-competitive, relatively low level league that barely even seems worth Lions bothering with. Lions might have been better to actively go out to win the BCL rather than try to compete in the second tier. Lions would be no more likely to win the BCL than Eurocup. The level of competition is comparable, perhaps even a little better and the format is much, much more unforgiving. If they went that route there's a very real chance they'd be eliminated in the qualifying rounds. Probably better for everyone, including any other BBL clubs with European aspirations, that Lions continue along the Eurocup/Euroleague path. Gives them the best part of 20 guaranteed European fixtures and potentially opens up the BCLQ/FEC route to other British clubs. |
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Post by SamH on May 12, 2023 19:05:30 GMT
Thing is, that is exactly why there is usually a salary cap in place, to ensure a level and competitive playing field! Even the NBA has one and it seems to work pretty well there, i.e. you don't have always the same old teams at the top year after year (obviously the draft helps with this too, giving the best new players to the worst teams, but the cap definitely is the main thing). Why 8 of the other 9 agreed to abolish the cap, I don't know. It would seem obvious to me that if you know your budget is smaller than others, and there is no limit on their spending, they are going to assemble a much better team than you can. It could be re-introduced of course, but I would think more likely would be 777 realising that the league isn't competitive and rather than restrict spending (and thus making Lions and perhaps 1 or 2 others not as good on the court) they would look to find other means of increasing spend for the remaining teams. What about the shared revenue from TV and so on? Isn't that meant to be divied up in such a way that the 'poorer' clubs get a bigger share? What shared revenue? Bugger all shared out between the clubs is bugger all. I doubt there's any revenue to BE shared anyway. Yeah it might be bugger all but that is the policy, right? So if the money begins to grow in the shared revenue streams, it won't all go to lions? |
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Post by erj14 on May 12, 2023 22:15:54 GMT
I really hope that's not their plan. Surely it should be about creating sustainable clubs who spend what they earn. I understand that in sports, some clubs will have wealthy benefactors who are happy to post losses. But that can't be the expectation for every team. I mostly like what 777 have done so far, so I'm more than happy to see how this pans out. I suppose worst case scenario is we end up back where we pretty much are now, should 777 think they've had enough. Thing is, that is exactly why there is usually a salary cap in place, to ensure a level and competitive playing field! Even the NBA has one and it seems to work pretty well there, i.e. you don't have always the same old teams at the top year after year (obviously the draft helps with this too, giving the best new players to the worst teams, but the cap definitely is the main thing). Why 8 of the other 9 agreed to abolish the cap, I don't know. It would seem obvious to me that if you know your budget is smaller than others, and there is no limit on their spending, they are going to assemble a much better team than you can. It could be re-introduced of course, but I would think more likely would be 777 realising that the league isn't competitive and rather than restrict spending (and thus making Lions and perhaps 1 or 2 others not as good on the court) they would look to find other means of increasing spend for the remaining teams. What about the shared revenue from TV and so on? Isn't that meant to be divied up in such a way that the 'poorer' clubs get a bigger share? I suppose the argument is, the salary cap has been hampering the league from growing. Wouldn't it be nice to maybe have 5-10 years (10 years is a long time for one team to be utterly dominant, only due to finances) of growth with no salary cap and then settle on a salary cap at a much higher level when the league has achieved a satisfactory level of growth. My problem was and still is, I don't see how London being successful in Europe actually increases revenue at all the other clubs. I think the 'trickle down' approach is a flawed argument in all walks of life, and only ever made by the people who benefit at the top. That's the way I see it for basketball as well. The only way I can see success, is the arrival of a huge tv deal where revenue from that can be shared equally. I think we a very long way from the BBL becoming popular enough to get that kind of deal. |
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Post by baldereagle on May 13, 2023 5:33:13 GMT
Remember that failed attempt by the European football “super clubs” to set up an exclusive NBA style European league ?
Maybe, just maybe that is 777’s long term plan. It certainly makes more sense of their tactics than the BBL “trickle down” theories.
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Post by dexter on May 13, 2023 7:12:33 GMT
Remember that failed attempt by the European football “super clubs” to set up an exclusive NBA style European league ? Maybe, just maybe that is 777’s long term plan. It certainly makes more sense of their tactics than the BBL “trickle down” theories. That already exists; Euroleague. Most Euroleague teams don’t have to qualify each season. But it’s not like the NBA because teams are not going to give up on their national leagues (or regional leagues in the case of the Serbs). There is talk of Euroleague expanding but I don’t see how London or Arab teams can be competitive unless they’re made up almost entirely of foreign players. |
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Post by tallerman on May 13, 2023 10:50:31 GMT
Claiming that Riders have had a comparable competitive advantage over the last 5-10 years to Lions now has got to be the most batshit crazy thing tallerman has ever said. I know Riders isn't his favourite club but to discredit what they've achieved domestically to that extent really is a bit much. Riders have never won anything by default. In fact I'd be very surprised if there haven't been seasons (including probably the last two) where we've been the BBL's best team without being it's biggest spenders. We won our first treble with Taylor, Couisnard, Losonsky, Rowe, Calvo... Lions are (probably) about to win theirs with a bunch of top level European players and guys who've played multiple seasons in the NBA. Sorry but anyone who see's those two achievements as remotely the same thing needs their head examined. If you want to argue that watching Lions dominate British basketball for the next 5+ years will be no more boring for most than what Riders have done the last 5+, that's fine. But to pretend that they're the same thing from a competitive standpoint is absolutely outrageous. As to whether what 777 are doing is ultimately good for the BBL, I'll reserve judgement for now. It all comes down to whether this trickle down theory actually works in practice. If Lions spending unprecedented sums of money on players and competing in the upper echelons of Europe does turn heads and attract wider investment in the league. And the end result is a financially stronger BBL top to bottom, great. It's well worth sacrificing a bit of short term competitiveness to achieve that. If it doesn't work, all we're really gonna end up with is a dull, non-competitive, relatively low level league that barely even seems worth Lions bothering with. Lions might have been better to actively go out to win the BCL rather than try to compete in the second tier. Lions would be no more likely to win the BCL than Eurocup. The level of competition is comparable, perhaps even a little better and the format is much, much more unforgiving. If they went that route there's a very real chance they'd be eliminated in the qualifying rounds. Probably better for everyone, including any other BBL clubs with European aspirations, that Lions continue along the Eurocup/Euroleague path. Gives them the best part of 20 guaranteed European fixtures and potentially opens up the BCLQ/FEC route to other British clubs. But who were that team playing? Were they playing players that go to top bbl german teams? Top g league stars? Players that have had 10 day contracts in the nba? No there biggest trouble was a 40 year old fab. You are comparing lions to riders when you need to compare who they played against, but you've got your rose tinted glasses on so you wont see it. To say that this is the biggest batshit crazy statement ive ever made is also miles off |
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Post by blueskies99 on May 13, 2023 13:20:41 GMT
Claiming that Riders have had a comparable competitive advantage over the last 5-10 years to Lions now has got to be the most batshit crazy thing tallerman has ever said. I know Riders isn't his favourite club but to discredit what they've achieved domestically to that extent really is a bit much. Riders have never won anything by default. In fact I'd be very surprised if there haven't been seasons (including probably the last two) where we've been the BBL's best team without being it's biggest spenders. We won our first treble with Taylor, Couisnard, Losonsky, Rowe, Calvo... Lions are (probably) about to win theirs with a bunch of top level European players and guys who've played multiple seasons in the NBA. Sorry but anyone who see's those two achievements as remotely the same thing needs their head examined. If you want to argue that watching Lions dominate British basketball for the next 5+ years will be no more boring for most than what Riders have done the last 5+, that's fine. But to pretend that they're the same thing from a competitive standpoint is absolutely outrageous. As to whether what 777 are doing is ultimately good for the BBL, I'll reserve judgement for now. It all comes down to whether this trickle down theory actually works in practice. If Lions spending unprecedented sums of money on players and competing in the upper echelons of Europe does turn heads and attract wider investment in the league. And the end result is a financially stronger BBL top to bottom, great. It's well worth sacrificing a bit of short term competitiveness to achieve that. If it doesn't work, all we're really gonna end up with is a dull, non-competitive, relatively low level league that barely even seems worth Lions bothering with. Lions would be no more likely to win the BCL than Eurocup. The level of competition is comparable, perhaps even a little better and the format is much, much more unforgiving. If they went that route there's a very real chance they'd be eliminated in the qualifying rounds. Probably better for everyone, including any other BBL clubs with European aspirations, that Lions continue along the Eurocup/Euroleague path. Gives them the best part of 20 guaranteed European fixtures and potentially opens up the BCLQ/FEC route to other British clubs. But who were that team playing? Were they playing players that go to top bbl german teams? Top g league stars? Players that have had 10 day contracts in the nba? No there biggest trouble was a 40 year old fab. You are comparing lions to riders when you need to compare who they played against, but you've got your rose tinted glasses on so you wont see it. To say that this is the biggest batshit crazy statement ive ever made is also miles off Hang on a minute……this comparison started off with alleged salaries…….now that comparison has been proved to be flawed you have changed it to a comparison of who they were playing……..what’s next? |
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Post by tallerman on May 13, 2023 13:54:49 GMT
It was and still is comparing players at the time, steve changed the arguement to the standard of players
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Post by teamnix on May 13, 2023 15:59:12 GMT
Hopefully 777 buy into Everton which is highly rumoured and they realise nix is only down the road and decide to put shed loads of money our way
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Post by ScottishBasketballFan on May 13, 2023 16:06:56 GMT
Hopefully 777 buy into Everton which is highly rumoured and they realise nix is only down the road and decide to put shed loads of money our way Wait, Everton as in Everton FC aka The Toffees are rumoured to be taken over by 777 who run the BBL & Lions? |
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Post by LTfan on May 13, 2023 16:13:00 GMT
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Post by dexter on May 13, 2023 16:18:30 GMT
Well Everton need the investment but also have a bright future if they can avoid relegation. There could also be potential for reviving Everton Tigers.
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Post by spacejammer on May 13, 2023 16:51:01 GMT
Hopefully 777 buy into Everton which is highly rumoured and they realise nix is only down the road and decide to put shed loads of money our way I'm a little confused as to what this thread is turning into as I feel like we have discussed 4 or 5 different conversations here. Although to me as much as I'm sort of down the middle with regards to 777 and their BBL ambitions. With the amount of investments them have its starting to sound like a kid with to many toys to play with if you ask me. And I think they would honestly have just been better as League investors rather then team investors in order to keep the playing field balance. That being said I do understand why they believe in building the reputation of the league through London. However if they leave everyone else behind in the process and don't share the pie it is hard to see how their plan to grow the league would work. Unless some other big money investors also come along and decide to start back the likes of Bristol and Manchester. Overall at the moment it seems like 777 don't look like their going to run away anytime soon. And if their offering Sam Dekker a huge 3 year contract then it's a good sign that their here for the long haul. All I can say is whenever this press conference takes place I would be very fascinated to see what questions they are asked and how they are answered. As I imagine once we have heard directly from them the next thread will probably stretch another 4 pages long when they try to justify their decisions and plans. |
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Post by Stephen Abootman on May 14, 2023 1:51:48 GMT
But who were that team playing? Were they playing players that go to top bbl german teams? Top g league stars? Players that have had 10 day contracts in the nba? No there biggest trouble was a 40 year old fab. You are comparing lions to riders when you need to compare who they played against, but you've got your rose tinted glasses on so you wont see it. To say that this is the biggest batshit crazy statement ive ever made is also miles off Eagles were still the dominant force in British basketball when Riders won their first treble. Regardless of how little you apparently think of the players they had that season, I imagine their budget was probably bigger than ours. Either way, comparing that to what Lions are doing now is just absolutely mental. Can you point out these 'top g league stars' and NBA players Riders have apparently been signing lately? I'm counting zero 'G League stars', zero players that have signed 10 day NBA contracts and one player who's currently having a decent season in the Bundesliga. A player I distinctly remember you saying had many flaws and wasn't good enough to play at a significantly better level. Unlike you I'm not privy to every club's financial records but I'd wager good money that if you compared the top two BBL budgets, every season for the last 10 years, the biggest relative difference by far would be this season. And I imagine the difference has grown progressively every year since 777 got involved. Seems like this is pretty much universally accepted tbh. Amazed anyone's trying to argue otherwise. |
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