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Post by SamH on May 17, 2022 16:46:13 GMT
Ok, maybe a hard one to answer (except for IRF who will say they're the best team ever, including the great NBA teams we've seen down the decades  ) but where would you rank this Riders team all time? A top 10 all time BBL team? Top 20? Top 3? And on that note, if its not them - who is your no.1 pick? |
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Post by A tall man on May 17, 2022 16:55:08 GMT
A lot lower than you think I reckon.
Ultimately we can only judge a team but the year they competed. How many sweeps have been before ? Kingston, Newcastle, Chester. Until the win all 4 I wouldn't put them in that discussion.
Next years riders will be better than this year's though. Realistically they're only 10 deep, thats shallow in Leicester terms, they'll be legit 12 deep next year
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Post by irf on May 17, 2022 16:59:38 GMT
Best BBL squad in last decade
I don't go any further back then that to comment
Eagles slam team was similarly dominant but squads were much shallower then and even Riders squad back then which was much weaker gave them problems albeit weren't good enough to beat them initially
This Riders squad would have beaten that Eagles squad. I have no doubt. Way too much quality and depth.
Having said that. In fairness to Eagles they could only beat what was up against them back then. And did so comfortably themselves. And they didn't need a deeper squad in those days
So why have a deep squad back then when a shallow squad could beat everyone easily and just have a much much weaker Riders squad to battle with every so often?
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Post by irf on May 17, 2022 17:08:21 GMT
A lot lower than you think I reckon. Ultimately we can only judge a team but the year they competed. How many sweeps have been before ? Kingston, Newcastle, Chester. Until the win all 4 I wouldn't put them in that discussion. Next years riders will be better than this year's though. Realistically they're only 10 deep, thats shallow in Leicester terms, they'll be legit 12 deep next year You have to look at the players and squads not just the trophies If the opposition we faced this season were the same squads Eagles faced when they last did the slam (including Riders back then with Neil Watson point guard, Barry Lamble, Harrison Gamble, Levi Noel, a very old Yorick Williams and an injured Anthony Rowe) then Riders not only would have done the slam that season But we would have averaged 40 point winning margins over the season instead of 20 point winning margins There is no comparison to the two Riders squads then and now And that old Riders squad only lost 1 or 2 league games more than Eagles last Slam squad lost? Riders and Eagles were miles ahead of the rest even with those players in Riders squad There was no opposition. Let's be honest. Even so I remember one team turning up to play us at Loughborough the year Eagles did the slam with a 6 man squad (think it was Cheshire)and us only beating them just in a nailbiter! That same 6 man opposition now we would have beaten by 40 points You just can't judge the team on trophies won We've won 5 out of last 6 league titles We've won 5 out of last 6 playoffs This squad is better than all the previous Riders squads with a bit to spare Our bench in this squad would beat the Riders starters that won league off the last Eagles Grand Slam squad Basically if we've ruined BBL now We would have totally destroyed BBL back then There's simply no comparison from the Riders squads then to now |
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Post by SamH on May 17, 2022 17:48:35 GMT
What about going back to times gone by? I remember the Giants, Sharks and Towers teams in the mid-late 90s that were very talented, or the John White Leopards. Before that were the Tigers and Bears teams in the early 90s. Bears did the playoffs 3-peat and won the league with Cunningham and Irish leading the way, Herman Harried was unbelievable among others.
I don't go further back but I understand the old Guildford/Kingston team put out some formidable squads in the 80s.
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Post by mac on May 17, 2022 18:16:29 GMT
Alright IRF, take a breath man. 🙂
I reckon the Eagles team of 2005/06 would give you a good game. It had Fab, Andrew Sullivan (MVP), Charles Smith, Darius Defoe, TJ Walker, Jeremy Hyatt all in their prime. You know all about the first four. TJ was nicknamed "The Daddy" and was the best Point Guard at that time. Quick feet and even quicker hands. Jeremy was a fast two guard with a deadly pull up three. Watching him do it in a fast break was breathtaking. Andrew Bridge (guard) won a Commonwealth Bronze along with Sulli and Fab. He had a nice shot too. Struggling to remember who else but I do remember that the defence was suffocating.
It's all moot though, we'll never know.
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Post by irf on May 17, 2022 18:27:52 GMT
Alright IRF, take a breath man. 🙂 I reckon the Eagles team of 2005/06 would give you a good game. It had Fab, Andrew Sullivan (MVP), Charles Smith, Darius Defoe, TJ Walker, Jeremy Hyatt all in their prime. You know all about the first four. TJ was nicknamed "The Daddy" and was the best Point Guard at that time. Quick feet and even quicker hands. Jeremy was a fast two guard with a deadly pull up three. Watching him do it in a fast break was breathtaking. Andrew Bridge (guard) won a Commonwealth Bronze along with Sulli and Fab. He had a nice shot too. Struggling to remember who else but I do remember that the defence was suffocating. It's all moot though, we'll never know. Correct That squad seems deeper than the one I knew And like I say if either of those Eagles slam squads had needed to be deeper then they could have added Like Tyson Fury says now it's unfair to compare Heavyweights from the past with now You can only beat what's in front of you at the time Back in Ali's day some of the best heavyweights were only 13 to 15 stone in weight They didn't have to be bigger then Just like basketball squads didn't need to be deeper in the past So we aren't comparing like with like Benches way more important now to compete for the league |
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Post by irf on May 17, 2022 18:28:43 GMT
Alright IRF, take a breath man. 🙂 I reckon the Eagles team of 2005/06 would give you a good game. It had Fab, Andrew Sullivan (MVP), Charles Smith, Darius Defoe, TJ Walker, Jeremy Hyatt all in their prime. You know all about the first four. TJ was nicknamed "The Daddy" and was the best Point Guard at that time. Quick feet and even quicker hands. Jeremy was a fast two guard with a deadly pull up three. Watching him do it in a fast break was breathtaking. Andrew Bridge (guard) won a Commonwealth Bronze along with Sulli and Fab. He had a nice shot too. Struggling to remember who else but I do remember that the defence was suffocating. It's all moot though, we'll never know. I've got to get my bit in early and hard!!! |
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Post by A tall man on May 17, 2022 19:09:57 GMT
You've backed up what I've said in your response to why they're not better than the squad of the past.
You can't compare them so we won't. Those teams dominated their years with trophies better than you did this year.
Would Riders be more successful if they took this team back? Quite possibly but with the evolution of basketball it doesn't sync up, there's some great stats on 3 point shooting. Whelan for example shot nearly double that a team did in the early 00s.
Don't worry about competing with the ghosts of the past and just try beating one of the cheapest squads with the smallest venue in Bristol
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Post by irf on May 17, 2022 19:25:45 GMT
You've backed up what I've said in your response to why they're not better than the squad of the past. You can't compare them so we won't. Those teams dominated their years with trophies better than you did this year. Would Riders be more successful if they took this team back? Quite possibly but with the evolution of basketball it doesn't sync up, there's some great stats on 3 point shooting. Whelan for example shot nearly double that a team did in the early 00s. Don't worry about competing with the ghosts of the past and just try beating one of the cheapest squads with the smallest venue in Bristol But the thread is asking us to compare? This squad beats all previous Riders squads by some margin And hence I say beats any squad this decade Needs others to compare to earlier than that |
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Post by A tall man on May 17, 2022 19:34:37 GMT
Yes but as you haven't been able to dominate all 4 trophies in a season you can't compare to the all time greats.
Be an all time great in a year and you'll be there, until then you're a trophy off.
Come on its only a clean sweep, if Leicester really were that good it shouldn't be that tough?
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Post by irf on May 17, 2022 19:39:43 GMT
Yes but as you haven't been able to dominate all 4 trophies in a season you can't compare to the all time greats. Be an all time great in a year and you'll be there, until then you're a trophy off. Come on its only a clean sweep, if Leicester really were that good it shouldn't be that tough? Over the season we've dominated the league more than ANY team in history In addition we've won 10 out of last 12 leagues and playoffs The two most sought after things to win That makes is all time greats IMO I'm putting us Top 3 of all time on that alone Any other squad in BBL dominated like that for five years? Ever?? I doubt it And Rob Top 3 BBL Coach of all time based on that stat alone We are all time greats |
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Post by A tall man on May 17, 2022 19:50:29 GMT
Did you dominate the trophy though? Or did a pokey little club with half the budget beat you?
I do wonder if Newcastle ever had a 5 year spell where they were more dominate? Any Eagles able to answer? Did they have perhaps 2 clean sweeps in a 5 year run?
Your rob comment is true, I have him 3rd behind fab and cadle, he'll probably over take fab in the next few years in my opinion, he'll do it quicker with European success
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Post by irf on May 17, 2022 19:53:29 GMT
Did you dominate the trophy though? Or did a pokey little club with half the budget beat you? I do wonder if Newcastle ever had a 5 year spell where they were more dominate? Any Eagles able to answer? Did they have perhaps 2 clean sweeps in a 5 year run? Your rob comment is true, I have him 3rd behind fab and cadle, he'll probably over take fab in the next few years in my opinion, he'll do it quicker with European success You can't dominate any of the cups or trophies it's one off games that anybody can lose Also I bet the season ANY past BBL team won a slam they lost more games than we lost this season |
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Post by A tall man on May 17, 2022 19:54:47 GMT
Cant dominate yet you've put a thread about dominating playoffs? One off games mate
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Post by irf on May 17, 2022 20:00:14 GMT
Cant dominate yet you've put a thread about dominating playoffs? One off games mate Two leg games ? We've lost one leg in total over 6 seasons That's all time great stats for Rob What did Kevin Cadle win in BBL? I have no idea? |
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Post by A tall man on May 17, 2022 20:05:59 GMT
In a word mate everything !
British Basketball League Champions 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1996
BBL play-off Champions 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1997
BBL Cup Winners 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991
BBL Trophy Winners 1996, 1997
Scottish Cup Winners 1984, 1985
Scottish Play-Off Champions 1984, 1985
English Cup Champions 1986, 1987, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1993, 1996
World Invitation Club Tournament Champions (WICB) 1990, 1992
Scottish Coach of the Year 1984, 1985
English Coach of the Year 1987, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1996
Scottish Men's National Team Head Coach 1984, 1985
English Men's National Team Head Coach 1991–1993
Great Britain Men's National Team Head Coach 1991–1992
Special coaching accomplishments
Placed in the Guinness Book of Records – "Most Successful Team Ever in British Sport" 1989/1990
Repeated in 1991/1992 Season
British record of more than 300 career league victories – 1998
Voted into the "Top 50 Most Influential Sportsperson" in Britain – 1996
Final grouping of the European Club Champions Cup – First Time Ever in Britain 1990/1991 Season: Ranked Number 6 in Europe
Repeated in 1993/1994 Season
Final grouping of the European Cup Winners Cup – 1987/1988 Season
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Post by SamH on May 17, 2022 20:24:33 GMT
See I'd throw in the Nick Nurse Bears that competed in ULEB and won a few. When we beat Rytas of Lithuania, their head coach quit or was fired the next day.😁
But on the domestic scene we didn't win everything. But that doesn't stop a team being among the all time greats. Mike Brown, Wilbur, Rico, Yorick, Siemon, Blaylock, Alleyne, Warren...those teams were stacked.
Does the greatest ever have to have won all trophies? I'd argue their league record gives more indication although I think they'd need to have won at least 2 if not 3 including the league. It is possible that a great team lost a couple of key players to injury and thus didn't win the cup or trophy perhaps, so you can't say they absolutely had to have won everything.
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Post by irf on May 17, 2022 20:30:39 GMT
In a word mate everything ! British Basketball League Champions 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1996 BBL play-off Champions 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1997 BBL Cup Winners 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991 BBL Trophy Winners 1996, 1997 Scottish Cup Winners 1984, 1985 Scottish Play-Off Champions 1984, 1985 English Cup Champions 1986, 1987, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1993, 1996 World Invitation Club Tournament Champions (WICB) 1990, 1992 Scottish Coach of the Year 1984, 1985 English Coach of the Year 1987, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1996 Scottish Men's National Team Head Coach 1984, 1985 English Men's National Team Head Coach 1991–1993 Great Britain Men's National Team Head Coach 1991–1992 Special coaching accomplishments Placed in the Guinness Book of Records – "Most Successful Team Ever in British Sport" 1989/1990 Repeated in 1991/1992 Season British record of more than 300 career league victories – 1998 Voted into the "Top 50 Most Influential Sportsperson" in Britain – 1996 Final grouping of the European Club Champions Cup – First Time Ever in Britain 1990/1991 Season: Ranked Number 6 in Europe Repeated in 1993/1994 Season Final grouping of the European Cup Winners Cup – 1987/1988 Season Ok he deserves his place alongside Rob then!! |
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Post by irf on May 17, 2022 20:34:21 GMT
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) but where would you rank this Riders team all time? A top 10 all time BBL team? Top 20? Top 3?
