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Post by irf on Jun 29, 2024 8:49:11 GMT
Government support for sport would tend to be for grass roots or amateur level though
Amateur boxing is a totally different set up to Pro boxing for example
It's 2 entirely different things really
Neither grassroots or pro is great with basketball
But sorting one wouldn't necessarily sort the other tbh
Pro boxing flourishing. Amateur not so much
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Post by foxtrot27 on Jun 29, 2024 9:06:46 GMT
Government support for sport would tend to be for grass roots or amateur level though Amateur boxing is a totally different set up to Pro boxing for example It's 2 entirely different things really Neither grassroots or pro is great with basketball But sorting one wouldn't necessarily sort the other tbh Pro boxing flourishing. Amateur not so much Any real commitment and investment at the national team or grassroots levels will lead to interest from commercial sponsors and private investors. Without it, we go nowhere. Not even for the pro league. |
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Post by dexter on Jun 29, 2024 9:51:42 GMT
If you asked 100 voters what was more important to them; lower taxes, better public services, or better British basketball, how many would choose better basketball? There is no democratic reason why more taxpayers money should go to basketball.
The money people contribute through the Lotto goes to support Team GB in the Olympic Games. There are not going to be British teams in the Olympic Games basketball tournaments unless we host it again, and even then it'll only be for that tournament.
Ice hockey in the UK has much fewer players than basketball and are just as limited with suitable arenas but they do manage to run a professional league and a well supported semi pro league, and GB are usually just in or just out the top tier of international ice hockey. I don't expect British ice hockey gets public funding.
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Post by irf on Jun 29, 2024 10:00:19 GMT
If you asked 100 voters what was more important to them; lower taxes, better public services, or better British basketball, how many would choose better basketball? There is no democratic reason why more taxpayers money should go to basketball. The money people contribute through the Lotto goes to support Team GB in the Olympic Games. There are not going to be British teams in the Olympic Games basketball tournaments unless we host it again, and even then it'll only be for that tournament. Ice hockey in the UK has much fewer players than basketball and are just as limited with suitable arenas but they do manage to run a professional league and a well supported semi pro league, and GB are usually just in or just out the top tier of international ice hockey. I don't expect British ice hockey gets public funding. Good observation There are way way less grass roots ice hockey players compared to grass roots basketball players in the UK. Yet pro ice hockey and national ice hockey does better? I don't think more funds into grassroots basketball or our national basketball teams will have much if any impact on the success of pro basketball in UK They aren't really linked. We have plenty of kids playing basketball over here |
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Post by dexter on Jun 29, 2024 10:34:27 GMT
If you asked 100 voters what was more important to them; lower taxes, better public services, or better British basketball, how many would choose better basketball? There is no democratic reason why more taxpayers money should go to basketball. The money people contribute through the Lotto goes to support Team GB in the Olympic Games. There are not going to be British teams in the Olympic Games basketball tournaments unless we host it again, and even then it'll only be for that tournament. Ice hockey in the UK has much fewer players than basketball and are just as limited with suitable arenas but they do manage to run a professional league and a well supported semi pro league, and GB are usually just in or just out the top tier of international ice hockey. I don't expect British ice hockey gets public funding. Good observation There are way way less grass roots ice hockey players compared to grass roots basketball players in the UK. Yet pro ice hockey and national ice hockey does better? I don't think more funds into grassroots basketball or our national basketball teams will have much if any impact on the success of pro basketball in UK They aren't really linked. We have plenty of kids playing basketball over here I agree and I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing that Basketball England and BBF are separate and have their own responsibilities. I just think neither has done a very good job. And as for 777 Partners, the fraud aside, I don't think the strategy was right because I don't think the focus was right. They wanted to make London Lions a big sports franchise and brand. But I think what British basketball needs more than that is a competitive British basketball league and a popular national team. I am encouraged by the Subway Summer Slam and I hope BBF can build on the interest generated by London Lions in the Copper Box Arena. The league really needs to get back to 10 teams but they need to be sustainable teams not a super team running at a massive loss and 2 teams owned by the league. As the netball league has done, basketball should look at the Australian league for inspiration of what a 10 team professional basketball league can look like. |
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Post by tallerman on Jun 29, 2024 13:52:22 GMT
Public support is essential for the success or the sport, regardless of how many forums, without fans in stands increasing year on year we won't have success at the level we want. I can only speak for plymouth, but in 25 years of following it, the 'pro' clubs have done an abysmal job at creating basketball fans. They've done a great job at putting on a family show and getting people to those games but there are about 400 fans out of 1600. All the sports your mentioning generally have people that are there for sport first and entertainment second. Basketball in this country has marketed itself as family friendly fun and not a sporting event. That needs to change and it takes decades to change
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Post by dandayr on Jun 29, 2024 23:54:37 GMT
All this is now water under the bridge. And all this talk of other investors waiting in the shadows is bollocks. With all the shenanigans I cant see anyone investing real money anytime soon. The talk about the license is also misguided. It has no value given the dire state of funding from UK Sport, Sport England etc. until they step up with a real plan and substantial funding, the sport is dead as far as credible outside investors are concerned. A good example is how France has come so far with their government support and help from the NBA. We've had our chance. As Alton Byrd said, its a missed opportunity. So we have bottled it to the point that we seem to only attract chancers from America and that has now blown up in our faces. We must face reality and until the sport gets proper public support, private investment will continue to be elusive. so what % of a governing bodies income being through grant support is it you think would count as proper public sport? BE income 62% is from grants, BS income 58% is from grants (both figures taken from latest financial reports on their websites) That sounds like organisations that are getting a decent level of public support through grant funding Do you propose the governing body part of the sport is at a point where 75% or more of its income is from grant funding? this is also just the grants to the governing bodies, the sport receives other public support direct to clubs (for example national lottery awards or local authority awards) and to programs like SSF, Shell Twilight Basketball, NBA London Mayor program and I am sure we could all come up with other programs if we put our collective minds to it that are publicly funded. So is the issue proper public support or the issue is how the public support is used? |
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Post by spacejammer on Jun 30, 2024 10:15:36 GMT
Public support is essential for the success or the sport, regardless of how many forums, without fans in stands increasing year on year we won't have success at the level we want. I can only speak for plymouth, but in 25 years of following it, the 'pro' clubs have done an abysmal job at creating basketball fans. They've done a great job at putting on a family show and getting people to those games but there are about 400 fans out of 1600. All the sports your mentioning generally have people that are there for sport first and entertainment second. Basketball in this country has marketed itself as family friendly fun and not a sporting event. That needs to change and it takes decades to change Yeah, as much as I tried to admire 777's ambition for making the BBL the 2nd best domestic league to the NBA we all knew that was never going to happen and definitely not anytime soon anyway. When you ask someone not linked to a BBL club generally about basketball they think NBA, LeBron James, Micheal Jordan or Steph Curry etc... Not Newcastle Eagles, Leicester Riders or Jordan Johnson and Teddy Allen etc... I known basketball fans who like the NBA but don't care so much for the BBL because it isn't the NBA as well. And as a country we don't have the same set up as what other European countries have with like NBA academies and teams playing in the highest levels or Europe or Asia. Unless the likes of Tosan can become a catalyst and the next Luka Donic or Giannis then it's hard to basketball getting to Everest hype levels of what you see in like Spain or France. But even if you take a star country player like Donic. Has the Slovenian leagues suddenly become a massive European league? Don't get me wrong I think the BBL can get bigger and become more popular. I mean despite the floor now falling through with 777 you now have more teams playing in a European level competition. But I think outside the family/friendly attraction it's going to be hard to see the league ever blowing up into one of the top 10 leagues in the world. And for the fans who only ever support NBA it's going to be tricky to convince them to also support the BBL as well. |
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Post by irf on Jun 30, 2024 10:22:33 GMT
Public support is essential for the success or the sport, regardless of how many forums, without fans in stands increasing year on year we won't have success at the level we want. I can only speak for plymouth, but in 25 years of following it, the 'pro' clubs have done an abysmal job at creating basketball fans. They've done a great job at putting on a family show and getting people to those games but there are about 400 fans out of 1600. All the sports your mentioning generally have people that are there for sport first and entertainment second. Basketball in this country has marketed itself as family friendly fun and not a sporting event. That needs to change and it takes decades to change Yeah, as much as I tried to admire 777's ambition for making the BBL the 2nd best domestic league to the NBA we all knew that was never going to happen and definitely not anytime soon anyway. When you ask someone not linked to a BBL club generally about basketball they think NBA, LeBron James, Micheal Jordan or Steph Curry etc... Not Newcastle Eagles, Leicester Riders or Jordan Johnson and Teddy Allen etc... I known basketball fans who like the NBA but don't care so much for the BBL because it isn't the NBA as well. And as a country we don't have the same set up as what other European countries have with like NBA academies and teams playing in the highest levels or Europe or Asia. Unless the likes of Tosan can become a catalyst and the next Luka Donic or Giannis then it's hard to basketball getting to Everest hype levels of what you see in like Spain or France. But even if you take a star country player like Donic. Has the Slovenian leagues suddenly become a massive European league? Don't get me wrong I think the BBL can get bigger and become more popular. I mean despite the floor now falling through with 777 you now have more teams playing in a European level competition. But I think outside the family/friendly attraction it's going to be hard to see the league ever blowing up into one of the top 10 leagues in the world. And for the fans who only ever support NBA it's going to be tricky to convince them to also support the BBL as well. We've all had great times and seen incredible things watching BBL as it was before 777 They actually made BBL less fun IMO Albeit Lions competed well in Europe What exactly are we wishing for here Wouldn't we all settle for ultra exciting and competitive BBL with all the games available to watch home and away by YouTube or similar? Was what 777 did actually fun to watch compared to before? Even whilst they were paying the bills? Shouldn't we just be happy with what we had? And look for that again? |
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Post by cosbyrider on Jun 30, 2024 10:54:42 GMT
Mid 90s into 2000s. Excellent sky sports coverage. Two conferences. Halcyon days. Riders were pants as well
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Post by spacejammer on Jun 30, 2024 11:24:19 GMT
Yeah, as much as I tried to admire 777's ambition for making the BBL the 2nd best domestic league to the NBA we all knew that was never going to happen and definitely not anytime soon anyway. When you ask someone not linked to a BBL club generally about basketball they think NBA, LeBron James, Micheal Jordan or Steph Curry etc... Not Newcastle Eagles, Leicester Riders or Jordan Johnson and Teddy Allen etc... I known basketball fans who like the NBA but don't care so much for the BBL because it isn't the NBA as well. And as a country we don't have the same set up as what other European countries have with like NBA academies and teams playing in the highest levels or Europe or Asia. Unless the likes of Tosan can become a catalyst and the next Luka Donic or Giannis then it's hard to basketball getting to Everest hype levels of what you see in like Spain or France. But even if you take a star country player like Donic. Has the Slovenian leagues suddenly become a massive European league? Don't get me wrong I think the BBL can get bigger and become more popular. I mean despite the floor now falling through with 777 you now have more teams playing in a European level competition. But I think outside the family/friendly attraction it's going to be hard to see the league ever blowing up into one of the top 10 leagues in the world. And for the fans who only ever support NBA it's going to be tricky to convince them to also support the BBL as well. We've all had great times and seen incredible things watching BBL as it was before 777 They actually made BBL less fun IMO Albeit Lions competed well in Europe What exactly are we wishing for here Wouldn't we all settle for ultra exciting and competitive BBL with all the games available to watch home and away by YouTube or similar? Was what 777 did actually fun to watch compared to before? Even whilst they were paying the bills? Shouldn't we just be happy with what we had? And look for that again? True, I agree after last season I prefer a league that is more competitive as opposed to a one sided one. When I watched Eagles play Lions I was really bored after Halftime and debating leaving early even. Another thing to add on my point earlier was whenever the NBA is on Sky or BBC theirs very little reference made to the BBL as well. It would be better if NBA had a game over here again if they were to mention the Lions or other teams more and perhaps get them involved as well. |
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Post by dexter on Jul 1, 2024 8:21:07 GMT
We've all had great times and seen incredible things watching BBL as it was before 777 They actually made BBL less fun IMO Albeit Lions competed well in Europe What exactly are we wishing for here Wouldn't we all settle for ultra exciting and competitive BBL with all the games available to watch home and away by YouTube or similar? Was what 777 did actually fun to watch compared to before? Even whilst they were paying the bills? Shouldn't we just be happy with what we had? And look for that again? True, I agree after last season I prefer a league that is more competitive as opposed to a one sided one. When I watched Eagles play Lions I was really bored after Halftime and debating leaving early even. Another thing to add on my point earlier was whenever the NBA is on Sky or BBC theirs very little reference made to the BBL as well. It would be better if NBA had a game over here again if they were to mention the Lions or other teams more and perhaps get them involved as well. I would be happy with what we had. I would be happy with the 7 remaining teams at the standard they were last season, which was pretty good and competitive with one another. And 3 other teams which should include a Manchester team playing at NBPC. I'm not sure what happens about a London team. A EuroCup standard team ruins the BBL and it's totally unsustainable. But an average BBL standard team in London has its own problems. It's not going to attract fans or players unless you're spending a lot on promotion, entertainment and salaries. I just don't know how it can work financially. There is no way to keep costs down. |
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Post by jbcalifornia on Jul 2, 2024 9:51:23 GMT
London seems to be a hard financial game for anything outside of football. Rugby union teams are in millions worth of depth, London rugby league team bounces in and out of relatigation from the super league. The elite ice hockey is huge In the uk, but bar Guildford there is no true pro London team, which is a shame and much like basketball you’d think more so than anywhere London could support a hockey team, but it doesn’t!! I don’t see London lions or any basketball team in London coming back anytime soon
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Post by D44 on Jul 2, 2024 12:41:41 GMT
London seems to be a hard financial game for anything outside of football. Rugby union teams are in millions worth of depth, London rugby league team bounces in and out of relatigation from the super league. The elite ice hockey is huge In the uk, but bar Guildford there is no true pro London team, which is a shame and much like basketball you’d think more so than anywhere London could support a hockey team, but it doesn’t!! I don’t see London lions or any basketball team in London coming back anytime soon Everyone always thinks London is a big market but I think there's limited appeal outside of the immediate area the team is based in. As you can't drive anywhere, taxis are a fortune and then your at the mercy of whether a tube line falls within a reasonable timeframe. For example I live about 10 miles away from the Eagles and it takes about 30 minutes door to door. My mate lives in Brentford which is about the same distance but takes an hour and a half to get to the Copperbox on the tube. |
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Post by irf on Jul 2, 2024 12:53:11 GMT
London seems to be a hard financial game for anything outside of football. Rugby union teams are in millions worth of depth, London rugby league team bounces in and out of relatigation from the super league. The elite ice hockey is huge In the uk, but bar Guildford there is no true pro London team, which is a shame and much like basketball you’d think more so than anywhere London could support a hockey team, but it doesn’t!! I don’t see London lions or any basketball team in London coming back anytime soon Everyone always thinks London is a big market but I think there's limited appeal outside of the immediate area the team is based in. As you can't drive anywhere, taxis are a fortune and then your at the mercy of whether a tube line falls within a reasonable timeframe. For example I live about 10 miles away from the Eagles and it takes about 30 minutes door to door. My mate lives in Brentford which is about the same distance but takes an hour and a half to get to the Copperbox on the tube. Correct look how many pro football teams are in London. Supporter bases are all like big towns or mini cities within London Edit just checked and there were 17 pro clubs from London last season (7 in the Premier League) |
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Post by cosbyrider on Jul 2, 2024 13:15:38 GMT
London seems to be a hard financial game for anything outside of football. Rugby union teams are in millions worth of depth, London rugby league team bounces in and out of relatigation from the super league. The elite ice hockey is huge In the uk, but bar Guildford there is no true pro London team, which is a shame and much like basketball you’d think more so than anywhere London could support a hockey team, but it doesn’t!! I don’t see London lions or any basketball team in London coming back anytime soon Venue availability is one key factor. As mentioned as well how do you build a support base when the locality isn’t greatly residential (or far more transient ie. People with no life link to the city - moved there for work etc) Outside of football, you’ve probably only got Harlequins whom have managed to establish themselves to a single venue as their own - even that’s greatly helped that it is in a rugby mad community next to the RFU’s national stadium! |
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Post by SamH on Jul 2, 2024 13:33:42 GMT
Yeah, I mean back in the day the London Towers were pretty successful, right? Not sure about Europe but they were certainly an elite BBL team with some real quality players. But where did they play? Crystal Palace sports centre AKA the Sauna. Not a great venue, not a huge capacity. And of course you had the Leopards who I think were in a bigger venue right over the other side of London and they did get some pretty big crowds for a while. But both would have been local, not the whole of London by any stretch. And of course both teams ended up going kaput, so make of that what you will...
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Post by dexter on Jul 2, 2024 14:35:17 GMT
London is no longer considered a suitable location for an NBA game. Not that it's unsuitable, there are just more suitable locations like Paris and Mexico where basketball is more popular.
This is also true of NHL which plays some games in Sweden but not in London. London gets NFL games which seems to be slightly more popular than NBA with the British public, and MLB which isn't particularly popular anywhere in Europe as far as I know but probably a popular early summer event in the London sporting calendar.
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Post by SamH on Jul 2, 2024 15:47:27 GMT
I thought the NBA moving away from London was more down to simply having done it loads of times and wanting to take the product to other countries as well? Not because it wasn't well supported here, because it was always a sell out. They did do it here for many years so I get it, they want to expand to other places too - but I hope they might do an NBA London again in the future as a one off.
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Post by dexter on Jul 2, 2024 16:16:20 GMT
I thought the NBA moving away from London was more down to simply having done it loads of times and wanting to take the product to other countries as well? Not because it wasn't well supported here, because it was always a sell out. They did do it here for many years so I get it, they want to expand to other places too - but I hope they might do an NBA London again in the future as a one off. NBA games in London were popular but they're doing it in Paris now instead as well as in Mexico and Abu Dhabi (preseason games only). I hope the NBA does return to London one day for a regular season game. I like the idea of the NBA playing a global game in a different location each year. As far as I know the NBA hasn't announced their plans for global games after 2025. It's understandable why they switched from London to Paris with basketball in France really thriving. |
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