The future……

[dandayr]

Jan 16, 2023 12:02:06 GMT milehigh said:

Playing the Trophy final in Glasgow makes it a very expensive weekend for the teams involved and spectators, also it increases the costs for match officials etc.

I'd be surprised if the fianal makes a significant profit for the BBL, after all the costs are deducted.

A Possible idea for the trophy would be to play it as a pre season tournament over a coupe of weekends, a last 16 and quarter final round at two venues, one in the North the other the south and then a final four event at a central venue. Semi Finals on the saturday and final on the Sunday afternoon, so everyone has time to get home at a sensible time.

not sure I get your logic on the first part.
No team is going to travel on the day of a final - so doesnt matter if Birmingham, Glasgow (and for 9 teams) London, there will be a costs of an overnight hotel for the teams no matter which of the three are used and I suspect Glasgow is not the most expensive of the hotels of the current three options.

Similar with the officials - they have hotel costs no matter if game is London, Birmingham or Glasgow.

Then there is the venue hire - based on who owns and who manages each of the current three venues used for finals, not sure why you would see costs at the Trophy being an issue as would expect the venue costs to be the lowest of the three.

The one where London and Birmingham clearly come top is capacity - Emirates arena is the smallest of the three, but with lower costs to put the event on then not sure why profits would be significantly lower than the BBL Cup final in Birmingham.

Spectators is I agree the big one - again no matter which venue though it is th big one. Until there is a culture in british basketball of large numbers of fans travelling to away games and finals, all three venues are dominated by neutrals and the comperes do a great job getting them involved and coaxing out them to be clear which finalist they are supporting on the day. For the smaller number in attendance who are from the participating club - the BBL cant wait and see for example Plymouth/Sheffield in the final so play at lower capacity Copperbox and not Birmingham in hope more fans of the clubs attend. So instead they push to maximise the neutrals attending, bigger crowd, bigger income - and do that at all three current venues.

[SamH]

I wouldn't say it's pointless for other teams to play BBL teams. It's good experience for them and I'm sure a few have won over the years? Wouldn't surprise me if a few of the top NBL teams could beat Surrey, for example. It's no different to the FA cup in that respect.

[tallerman]

Not to long ago it was an nbl1 team in the final

[erj14]

Jan 16, 2023 21:06:28 GMT SamH said:

I wouldn't say it's pointless for other teams to play BBL teams. It's good experience for them and I'm sure a few have won over the years? Wouldn't surprise me if a few of the top NBL teams could beat Surrey, for example. It's no different to the FA cup in that respect.

Can't see that personally, the gap has widened and even the bottom teams in the BBL are significantly better than the top NBL teams. I still like them being in there though and want to see the NBL make the leap the BBL has and keep pace with it.

[erj14]

Jan 16, 2023 22:28:28 GMT tallerman said:

Not to long ago it was an nbl1 team in the final

That was an anomaly really though. Solent were probably playing with a budget bigger than a few BBL teams.

No way is an NBL team getting near a final now.

[tallerman]

No not a chance, derby have the best shot but theyll fave London in the semis if they beat Plymouth

[LTfan]

Jan 16, 2023 12:02:06 GMT milehigh said:

Playing the Trophy final in Glasgow makes it a very expensive weekend for the teams involved and spectators, also it increases the costs for match officials etc.

I'd be surprised if the fianal makes a significant profit for the BBL, after all the costs are deducted.

Doesn't the BBL get the Emirates Arena in Glasgow at a discounted rate, something to do with them having to move the date once to accommodate some other event (tennis?).
It might just be me, but I've always assumed that's why the Trophy Final still gets held there year after year.

[LTfan]

I'm another vote for not scrapping the Trophy.

Not all 4 titles are equal but having 4 titles still makes the season more interesting. Having only 3 titles would be a step backwards, especially as one of those (the Championship) doesn't have a big showcase event at the end of it.

I'd like to know the logic behind this proposal... the Cup, Trophy and Play-Off finals are the BBL's big money makers, as well as their biggest publicity events, why would they want to lose one of them?

I'm thinking there's more to this than we know. I'm thinking the Trophy final would be replaced with some other showcase event. Maybe something involving all teams? Maybe something similar to the British Basketball All-Stars Championship, but maybe held over an entire weekend?
I wouldn't be against that - the British Basketball All-Stars Championship was a great event that all teams and fans could get involved in. It also provided maybe the best introduction to the BBL for non-fans (because almost all teams were represented). But I'd want it in addition to the other big 3 events/4 titles, not in replace of.
We're supposed to be moving forwards, not backwards.

[dexter]

I agree there is more to this than we know. I am sure the BBL wants to keep 3 finals or big events. I actually think this is a way to move the BBL Trophy final out of Scotland because it could be a bigger event and more profitable in England.

[blueskies99]

Jan 17, 2023 11:48:31 GMT dexter said:

I agree there is more to this than we know. I am sure the BBL wants to keep 3 finals or big events. I actually think this is a way to move the BBL Trophy final out of Scotland because it could be a bigger event and more profitable in England.

I know this is purely conjecture but sainpat was moaning on twitter a few days ago about the £ions fixture congestion…….and then this topic pops up at the same time….

Maybe pressure being put on the BBL by certain interested parties.  

[dexter]

Jan 17, 2023 15:45:15 GMT blueskies99 said:

Jan 17, 2023 11:48:31 GMT dexter said:

I agree there is more to this than we know. I am sure the BBL wants to keep 3 finals or big events. I actually think this is a way to move the BBL Trophy final out of Scotland because it could be a bigger event and more profitable in England.

I know this is purely conjecture but sainpat was moaning on twitter a few days ago about the £ions fixture congestion…….and then this topic pops up at the same time….

Maybe pressure being put on the BBL by certain interested parties.  

Maybe Schmidt should have a day off and let his assistant coach take change of the next BBL Trophy game, using Lions’s 7 most junior players.

[Stephen Abootman]

Poor little London Lions. I feel so sorry for them having to play all those basketball games with their threadbare, on a shoestring squad.

As shite as I think the Trophy is in it's current form I don't think I'd scrap it entirely. Wales and the Scottish league representative definitely need binning. I'd bring back the round robin phase and divide however many NBL teams you want to include evenly among the groups. It's the only fair way to incorporate them. Aside from Solent's anomalous run a few years ago, these teams have a pretty grim long term record in the competition. Very few wins and the ones there have been have invariably come against bottom of the table BBL teams. Don't mind the idea of rotating the Final venue. Personally I wouldn't mind seeing the semis and final played as a Finals weekend though it's been suggested in the past this doesn't work well.

Football and basketball in Britain are really not comparable. There are what, 100+ fully professional football clubs in England alone, plus a bunch more semi-pro clubs with half decent setups and more fans than some BBL teams. You're pissing into the wind trying to create some sort of expanded, FA Cup style basketball competition with lots of fun David versus Goliath matchups. British basketball is nowhere near deep enough for that.

[SamH]

I agree, round robin groups with the 4 winners doing knockout semis and final, perhaps a weekend at a big venue with a women's final as well or something. Why not go back to making the groups regional too? It's nothing new but I don't know why they moved away from that format to begin with really.

[voise]

To offer an alternative view, I'm ambivalent about the trophy. I think principally because we're already facing teams 4 times in the league. Add in the cup, trophy and playoffs, a maximum of 7 times seems like overkill.
Also persuaded by Dave F's argument that the gulf between the bottom of the BBL and top of the NBL is too big (and growing) to make it worthwhile involving the lower leagues.

[naenia]

I do think it's confusing for newcomers that there's a regular season, playoffs, cup and trophy and none of the games look or feel remarkably different. You would hope other solutions would be found/discussed before they would land on just scrapping the trophy altogether though.

[bullets92]

What actually is the benefit of NBL teams playing?

I doubt they make much money, if at all (an incentive for smaller clubs in the FA Cup)

I also doubt the prize money is anything worthwhile, not that they often win

And it's hardly a learning experience when they're thumped often by 30+ points

[spacejammer]

Jan 17, 2023 18:42:32 GMT SamH said:

I agree, round robin groups with the 4 winners doing knockout semis and final, perhaps a weekend at a big venue with a women's final as well or something. Why not go back to making the groups regional too? It's nothing new but I don't know why they moved away from that format to begin with really.

I like the sound of something like that like a final 4 in a way.
You could tour it around the UK to non BBL cities and see if it attracts any new fans possibly.

Doing it regional you could do 3 regional qualifiers and then each winner advances to a final 4 weekend with the defending champion getting a bye to the final 4 automatically.

For example Cheshire won last years Trophy so they would automatically go through but you could have.

North group-Caledonia, Sheffield, and Newcastle host at Vertu Motors.

West group-Bristol, Manchester and Leicester with Leicester hosting at Morningside arena.

South group-Plymouth, Surrey and London with London hosting at the Copperbox.

Each team that wins their weekend advances to a final 4 weekend in for somewhere like Cardiff 2024.

You could also do the groups randomly instead of geographical.
Although you would need to invest some money into but it gets rid of the NBL teams.
And if more teams like Bristol and Sheffield get their own arenas it would be a good way to utilise basketball purpose venues too.

[dexter]

Jan 17, 2023 20:30:51 GMT bullets92 said:

What actually is the benefit of NBL teams playing?

I doubt they make much money, if at all (an incentive for smaller clubs in the FA Cup)

I also doubt the prize money is anything worthwhile, not that they often win

And it's hardly a learning experience when they're thumped often by 30+ points

I will wait to see how Derby do against Plymouth before I have an opinion on that. If they lose by 30 points it will be difficult to defend the BBL Trophy. If they’re within 20 points I would say that justifies the competition.

[SamH]

Yeah you could just get rid of the nbl teams and do 3 groups, one would have to have 4 teams though.

The problem still remains with round robin, when every team finishes with the same record. Tie breakers like point differential suck in basketball.

Or just change it up completely. Lose the trophy but bring in a final 4 weekend where the games are played in more of an all star style theme. You could change the rules up a bit, say 1 point and possession on fouls instead of free throws, add in a 4 point line or 5 point hot spots on the court (think NBA jam turbo!) It's a fun event played in good spirits, attracting new fans but does come with a trophy for the winners (and maybe like the NBA all star game, the winning team chooses a charity to receive a donation from the league. Get some entertaining acts for breaks in the action, make it razz matazz.

That may not appeal to purists but it's about attracting new fans and doing something different. No trophy or all star game but something like this instead.

As for which 4 teams get to play? Have a cut off point of say, end of January. Top 4 teams at that point get invited, do it in March or something.

[LTfan]

Jan 17, 2023 21:25:47 GMT SamH said:

Yeah you could just get rid of the nbl teams and do 3 groups, one would have to have 4 teams though.

The problem still remains with round robin, when every team finishes with the same record. Tie breakers like point differential suck in basketball.

Or just change it up completely. Lose the trophy but bring in a final 4 weekend where the games are played in more of an all star style theme. You could change the rules up a bit, say 1 point and possession on fouls instead of free throws, add in a 4 point line or 5 point hot spots on the court (think NBA jam turbo!) It's a fun event played in good spirits, attracting new fans but does come with a trophy for the winners (and maybe like the NBA all star game, the winning team chooses a charity to receive a donation from the league. Get some entertaining acts for breaks in the action, make it razz matazz.

That may not appeal to purists but it's about attracting new fans and doing something different. No trophy or all star game but something like this instead.

As for which 4 teams get to play? Have a cut off point of say, end of January. Top 4 teams at that point get invited, do it in March or something.

That's essentially a variation of the British Basketball All Stars Championship, which would get my vote.
Yes, as you say, it wouldn't be for the purists - but you'd still have the BBL Championship, Play-Offs and Cup for them. This would be about a showcase event/weekend, primarily designed at attracting new fans to basketball.

My only real disagreement with anything you've said is that if we go down that route why limit participation to just 4 teams? Why not create a format that allows all teams to participate, that would be the best way to introduce new fans to the BBL.
Also get Sky to broadcast the entire event. Having 5 hours of live basketball on Sky again would only be a good thing too.