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Post by dexter on Dec 6, 2022 20:16:52 GMT
Personally I think getting more teams (but decent ones with sustainability for the long term) should be his priority. It was looking very close to being only 9 teams this season and 10 is not enough anyway. We've had this discussion and whether 16 will ever be realistic and competitive, it may just be a fantasy. But at least 12, 13 teams would be good. In an ideal world there would be 16 teams. But if there was an increase in the total budget for the league I would rather have 10 good teams than another 6 at the current level. |
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Post by blueskies99 on Dec 12, 2022 12:31:56 GMT
Further to this announcement, Dan Routledge and Dave Forrester discuss it at the end of this weeks Sunday Night Breakdown.
Mark Ellis also has a discussion about it with Kevin Routledge on the Riders podcast “Along for the Ride”.
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Post by cosbyrider on Dec 12, 2022 17:00:46 GMT
And as fans, what do you think his top 3 priorities should be? It’s difficult to answer that because I don’t understand how it all works financially, but in my uninformed opinion the priorities should be: 1. To increase revenue and funding from sponsors, match day income, government funding, investors and benefactors, and broadcasters (but not at the expense of the current free to view situation). 2. To use this bigger budget to improve the quality of players. 3. To get the BBL, London Lions in EuroCup, and GB teams talked about on the BBC and in other media. Newspapers’ online sports sections don’t even have a section for “Other Sports”. They all have about ten of their favourite sports that they cover and there is nowhere to put British basketball. I don’t know what the answer is to that but it is a barrier that needs to be overcome. British ice hockey is in the same position; blocked from being in the media. But I think this is worse for basketball because the ice hockey teams rely on fans going to the games. I see basketball as having more of a broad national appeal with people watching from home, following the league online etc. Your point 3 is valid but 777 are looking it from a different angle. They don’t believe they can get anything from the BBC and traditional outlets. They are going to attempt getting British basketball in the conscious of young audiences via social media and other media forms eg TikTok, YouTube and Instagram. |
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Post by dexter on Dec 12, 2022 17:35:17 GMT
It’s difficult to answer that because I don’t understand how it all works financially, but in my uninformed opinion the priorities should be: 1. To increase revenue and funding from sponsors, match day income, government funding, investors and benefactors, and broadcasters (but not at the expense of the current free to view situation). 2. To use this bigger budget to improve the quality of players. 3. To get the BBL, London Lions in EuroCup, and GB teams talked about on the BBC and in other media. Newspapers’ online sports sections don’t even have a section for “Other Sports”. They all have about ten of their favourite sports that they cover and there is nowhere to put British basketball. I don’t know what the answer is to that but it is a barrier that needs to be overcome. British ice hockey is in the same position; blocked from being in the media. But I think this is worse for basketball because the ice hockey teams rely on fans going to the games. I see basketball as having more of a broad national appeal with people watching from home, following the league online etc. Your point 3 is valid but 777 are looking it from a different angle. They don’t believe they can get anything from the BBC and traditional outlets. They are going to attempt getting British basketball in the conscious of young audiences via social media and other media forms eg TikTok, YouTube and Instagram. Then they are attempting to do something that has never been done. How do they even know that’s possible? Compared to the other so-called major North American sports: NFL has successfully broken into the British market. The BBC does include NFL in its sports news. NFL is mainstream. Ice hockey has a loyal following; there are towns where one of their major professional sports teams is an ice hockey team. And Viaplay is basically the sports channel for ice hockey fans. Ice hockey is not mainstream but it is an established professional spectator sport. What will basketball be? One professional team beating part timers by 20 points every game? Is that fun? |
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Post by irf on Dec 12, 2022 18:42:32 GMT
Your point 3 is valid but 777 are looking it from a different angle. They don’t believe they can get anything from the BBC and traditional outlets. They are going to attempt getting British basketball in the conscious of young audiences via social media and other media forms eg TikTok, YouTube and Instagram. Then they are attempting to do something that has never been done. How do they even know that’s possible? Compared to the other so-called major North American sports: NFL has successfully broken into the British market. The BBC does include NFL in its sports news. NFL is mainstream. Ice hockey has a loyal following; there are towns where one of their major professional sports teams is an ice hockey team. And Viaplay is basically the sports channel for ice hockey fans. Ice hockey is not mainstream but it is an established professional spectator sport. What will basketball be? One professional team beating part timers by 20 points every game? Is that fun? On the opposite side you could argue that BBL to date has significantly failed to grow and become known by the British public It's so very niche as it stands Despite the huge number of kids who play basketball in UK There has to be potential for better? The status quo is not that great despite the fact we on here all pretty much like it and support it as it is? |
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Post by cosbyrider on Dec 12, 2022 18:58:26 GMT
Your point 3 is valid but 777 are looking it from a different angle. They don’t believe they can get anything from the BBC and traditional outlets. They are going to attempt getting British basketball in the conscious of young audiences via social media and other media forms eg TikTok, YouTube and Instagram. Then they are attempting to do something that has never been done. How do they even know that’s possible? Compared to the other so-called major North American sports: NFL has successfully broken into the British market. The BBC does include NFL in its sports news. NFL is mainstream. Ice hockey has a loyal following; there are towns where one of their major professional sports teams is an ice hockey team. And Viaplay is basically the sports channel for ice hockey fans. Ice hockey is not mainstream but it is an established professional spectator sport. What will basketball be? One professional team beating part timers by 20 points every game? Is that fun? They are targeting a different audience than the NFL. NFL’s roots for its interest were planted when Channel 4 started showing it in the early 90s. Sky have been showing NFL since 1995. It’s been nearly 30 years of building the coverage, the fanbase and getting games into London for it to finally get established. They even tried NFL Europe and it failed. It’s not comparable to why British basketball finds itself currently. 777 are going for a different demographic. A demographic which doesn’t use BBC for news or read a newspaper. British basketball has aimed for previous demographics and marketing previously to failure. Sky’s coverage of BBL fulfils the need of getting airtime to sponsors. But consider why 777 have backed that all games are to go on YouTube live. www.sportindustry.biz/sports-categories/basketball/the-british-basketball-leagues-bright-new-future/This interview continually mentions digital content. They are a business and this is their execution plan. They need to make a profit and this is how they think they can pull it off. Don’t really get the one professional team point because I really dislike what they have done with Lions in terms of sports competition but I can separate their goals for their investment. They see a sport which does incredibly well at participation in young people - so how do they convert that? This is their plan. The BBC and traditional media outlets will come with it if you create something which different from what else is out there |
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Post by cosbyrider on Dec 12, 2022 19:01:54 GMT
Also I think the London Lions and European basketball thing is basically them attempting to awaken a national concious in the same way that you can achieve it far easier from international sport.
Take England female football team for example - if something is successful, you can get a boost on the overall enthusiasm for the sport. 777 can’t buy Team GB or suddenly get them decent players - so having a London based team creating a noise at a high(er) level is another strategy
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Post by docker on Dec 12, 2022 19:53:17 GMT
Then they are attempting to do something that has never been done. How do they even know that’s possible? Compared to the other so-called major North American sports: NFL has successfully broken into the British market. The BBC does include NFL in its sports news. NFL is mainstream. Ice hockey has a loyal following; there are towns where one of their major professional sports teams is an ice hockey team. And Viaplay is basically the sports channel for ice hockey fans. Ice hockey is not mainstream but it is an established professional spectator sport. What will basketball be? One professional team beating part timers by 20 points every game? Is that fun? They are targeting a different audience than the NFL. NFL’s roots for its interest were planted when Channel 4 started showing it in the early 90s. Sky have been showing NFL since 1995. It’s been nearly 30 years of building the coverage, the fanbase and getting games into London for it to finally get established. They even tried NFL Europe and it failed. It’s not comparable to why British basketball finds itself currently. 777 are going for a different demographic. A demographic which doesn’t use BBC for news or read a newspaper. British basketball has aimed for previous demographics and marketing previously to failure. Sky’s coverage of BBL fulfils the need of getting airtime to sponsors. But consider why 777 have backed that all games are to go on YouTube live. www.sportindustry.biz/sports-categories/basketball/the-british-basketball-leagues-bright-new-future/This interview continually mentions digital content. They are a business and this is their execution plan. They need to make a profit and this is how they think they can pull it off. Don’t really get the one professional team point because I really dislike what they have done with Lions in terms of sports competition but I can separate their goals for their investment. They see a sport which does incredibly well at participation in young people - so how do they convert that? This is their plan. The BBC and traditional media outlets will come with it if you create something which different from what else is out there Not sure it is the whole story to suggest the younger demographic don't use one or more BBC platforms as a source of news alongside social media. This recent Ofcom report makes it very clear that the BBC is still a significant news source even for 16-24 year olds: www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0027/241947/News-Consumption-in-the-UK-2022-report.pdf![]() |
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Post by dexter on Dec 12, 2022 20:18:04 GMT
I really like having a competitive team to follow in Europe but right now it feels like London Lions are storming ahead and there’s nothing the other teams can do about it. I would really like it if a second big budget British team emerged. I notice it has been a very long time since there has been any mention of new teams, and there is no indication that any of the existing teams are about to have a big budget increase. If London Lions is the catalyst when can we expect any kind of reaction?
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Post by cosbyrider on Dec 12, 2022 20:57:20 GMT
They are targeting a different audience than the NFL. NFL’s roots for its interest were planted when Channel 4 started showing it in the early 90s. Sky have been showing NFL since 1995. It’s been nearly 30 years of building the coverage, the fanbase and getting games into London for it to finally get established. They even tried NFL Europe and it failed. It’s not comparable to why British basketball finds itself currently. 777 are going for a different demographic. A demographic which doesn’t use BBC for news or read a newspaper. British basketball has aimed for previous demographics and marketing previously to failure. Sky’s coverage of BBL fulfils the need of getting airtime to sponsors. But consider why 777 have backed that all games are to go on YouTube live. www.sportindustry.biz/sports-categories/basketball/the-british-basketball-leagues-bright-new-future/This interview continually mentions digital content. They are a business and this is their execution plan. They need to make a profit and this is how they think they can pull it off. Don’t really get the one professional team point because I really dislike what they have done with Lions in terms of sports competition but I can separate their goals for their investment. They see a sport which does incredibly well at participation in young people - so how do they convert that? This is their plan. The BBC and traditional media outlets will come with it if you create something which different from what else is out there Not sure it is the whole story to suggest the younger demographic don't use one or more BBC platforms as a source of news alongside social media. This recent Ofcom report makes it very clear that the BBC is still a significant news source even for 16-24 year olds: www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0027/241947/News-Consumption-in-the-UK-2022-report.pdf![]() I don’t doubt that but that document you’ve attached shows how the growing trend for news consumption is via social media. One of the headline conclusions is ‘social media is overtaking traditional channels amongst teens’. You’ll notice that a lot of BBC sport stories are underpinned by short clips. That’s them trying to evolve - but this is exactly the sort of stuff 777 will be trying to get out there. 90 second clips - bang bang - off to the next clip. It’s a gamble but it will have been researched. 777 are firstly a captain investment business. |
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Post by cosbyrider on Dec 12, 2022 21:01:01 GMT
I really like having a competitive team to follow in Europe but right now it feels like London Lions are storming ahead and there’s nothing the other teams can do about it. I would really like it if a second big budget British team emerged. I notice it has been a very long time since there has been any mention of new teams, and there is no indication that any of the existing teams are about to have a big budget increase. If London Lions is the catalyst when can we expect any kind of reaction? Lions will slow down eventually and I think they know it. They’ve been quite vocal about the need for clubs to own their arenas. Lions are never going have to that but they could get anchor tenants. The day they start selling out Copper Box, then the rent goes up and they have to make the next leap into a larger arena. The venue issue is going to slow them down unless a very expensive rabbit can be pulled out of a hat |
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Post by naenia on Dec 12, 2022 21:22:06 GMT
Putting aside whether it would make business sense at the moment, are there any barriers other than money that would prevent 777 hypothetically being able to buy the Copper Box?
And would anyone be able to venture a guess at how much it would cost? I was just looking around and if the Ricoh/Coventry Building Society arena (obviously a much bigger arena at 32,000 seats - but also not in London) sold for £15 million, it might not be crazy expensive in the context of their wider investment in the Lions/BBL project.
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Post by cosbyrider on Dec 12, 2022 22:12:47 GMT
The arena in Manchester was bought for £82 million nearly ten years ago
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Post by irf on Dec 13, 2022 6:43:12 GMT
What's the reason for BBL clubs having to own arenas?
In NBA only 7 teams own their arenas?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2022 7:11:37 GMT
What's the reason for BBL clubs having to own arenas? In NBA only 7 teams own their arenas? Food and beverages would be one of the biggest ways of bringing money in for any BBL team NBA teams, in one of the absolute biggest sports leagues in the world, with billion dollar revenue streams probably aren’t as worried about making a quid off a pint of coke in comparison It’s such a pointless comparison That’s before we mention that most NBA teams arenas were built with public funds. Bye the local authority because of the revenue they bringing over the years, again, it’s just a completely different world to the BBL and not remotely worth comparing |
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Post by irf on Dec 13, 2022 8:57:40 GMT
What's the reason for BBL clubs having to own arenas? In NBA only 7 teams own their arenas? Food and beverages would be one of the biggest ways of bringing money in for any BBL team NBA teams, in one of the absolute biggest sports leagues in the world, with billion dollar revenue streams probably aren’t as worried about making a quid off a pint of coke in comparison It’s such a pointless comparison That’s before we mention that most NBA teams arenas were built with public funds. Bye the local authority because of the revenue they bringing over the years, again, it’s just a completely different world to the BBL and not remotely worth comparing Lol You honestly think profit from food and drink can justify buying arenas and paying to run them? That's the biggest misconception I read on sports forums It's ludicrous to think a sport where clubs can barely afford to survive as it is can start owning their own arenas Totally different business. As NBA clubs know very well We've discussed clubs having to find a £1m franchise fee (allegedly) in Northern Ireland And saying that's a big ask etc and will put new clubs off joining Riders only rent the arena they have but it's looked as as their own arena as its long time rental. If Lions want to stay long term in the game they could look at long term rental of an arena rather than find the money it would cost to buy an arena in London. Which I dread to imagine the cost in the capital? Same as what the NBA clubs do It would be a totally different business making an arena work in any city compared to running a BBL basketball club It's hard enough running a BBL basketball club and just paying rent to run an arena For an arena they will use less than once a week on average all year Ps when riders were at Loughborough Uni they sold food and drink and kept the profit regardless? Some arenas will want the profit. The cheap places some BBL clubs are so basic they will let the club's keep the profits as it is As part of the deal where they now have long term rent of the arena - the company who lease Riders the arena keep the profit from food and drink sales. The company who lease Riders the arena have to find events to fill it when Riders aren't playing to make it viable. They have a very tough job in the current world It's an entirely separate business to Riders professional basketball team The cost to own and run an arena is prohibitive even to NBA clubs who could get finance if it made good business sense Knicks play at MSG. Despite being one of the biggest basketball clubs in the world with huge income Knicks will only represent a tiny tiny percentage of the revenue MSG needs to operate Would be the same for any arena with any basketball team in any city in UK. Just different figures but still basketball bringing in a tiny tiny percentage of the income that running an arena needs Plymouth Pavilions sellout Patriots for home games. Pats can't even afford the low RENT they pay ongoing. Let alone consider owning that venue. Selling lots of kit Kats and coco cola on match days there isn't helping Pavilions want to keep them in there is it? |
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Post by milehigh on Dec 13, 2022 9:38:12 GMT
A lot of NBA arenas are actually owned by an organisation that also has the NBA, and NHL, teams as part of the business group, eg Knicks and Rangers at MSG and Nuggest and Avalanche at the Ball arena, that is owned by Kronke sports.
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Post by irf on Dec 13, 2022 10:57:43 GMT
A lot of NBA arenas are actually owned by an organisation that also has the NBA, and NHL, teams as part of the business group, eg Knicks and Rangers at MSG and Nuggest and Avalanche at the Ball arena, that is owned by Kronke sports. But look at the arenas they play in These are destination arenas with events happening daily (sporting and non sporting) Companies paying huge money for boxes and suites there annually for access to all the events When I go to Nottingham Arena for the ice hockey the it's rare to see more than one or two of the actual corporate seasonal boxes even being used for the ice hockey Same would apply if basketball (in its current form was in there) These arenas thrive on entertainers and events where people will pay closer to £100 a ticket than £10 a ticket for BBL Basketball in UK not even financially viable in Pavilions Plymouth shows how smalltime it is in terms of income it generates from an event It's very cheap ticket price in comparison to most arena events Its where we are at in UK What's the most people would realistically be prepared to pay in any numbers to watch BBL matches in the UK? Not high at all |
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Post by irf on Dec 13, 2022 11:07:01 GMT
Just to confirm who is actually saying BBL clubs need to be owning arenas?
Is it the new CEO?
I've lost track?
If so he's in for a shock once he does the maths over here!
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Post by erj14 on Dec 13, 2022 11:29:37 GMT
What's the reason for BBL clubs having to own arenas? In NBA only 7 teams own their arenas? As with most of my answers on here it will be very Eagles centric, but I'll try and answer this from our point of view up here. Our arena is way more than just a place to play a BBL game in every other Friday. It's quickly become the center of the North East basketball universe. It's rammed full every weekend with CVL (under 8s up to under 18s) games taking place, as well as academy games and local league games. Every evening there are training sessions taking place for the academy teams. These are all basketball related operations which helps create a new generation of basketball fans. The building also hosts conferences for big businesses, other sporting events and smaller meetings. All income in to the foundation. Keeping game day income isn't just a small amount of money either, in the context of the BBL. It must make a huge difference to the bottom line. From a spectator point of view it has also made it more enjoyable to go to a game as well. It's purpose built for basketball and every seat in there has a good view. Certainly a much better environment for basketball than Sports Central was. There is value in owning your own facility, but you also have to manage it correctly. As you've already alluded to in other posts, it can't sit empty when there is no BBL game on. |
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