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Post by irf on Mar 6, 2022 19:22:36 GMT
Be honest
You could copy and paste that same paragraph for any of the last 5 seasons at Eagles?
Couldn't you?
The fact you rely so much on Defoe even at the age he is now is one of the reasons you can't compete at the highest level of BBL IMO
He shouldn't be playing more than 15 mins from the bench at most at this stage of his career
Is there any strategic plan to build something new and fresh up there
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Post by A tall man on Mar 6, 2022 19:43:04 GMT
Didn't they win w trophies last year? I think this is definitely a slip in the Eagles legacy
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Post by spacejammer on Mar 6, 2022 20:23:35 GMT
As brutal as these posts are I sort of agree and believe it to be the story of the season.
Yes we did win things last year such as the Cup and Playoffs so we do still get some success.
But in terms of being a team that is capable of winning the championship it doesn't seem like we have that formula.
As for Defoe no matter what I'd always rate him especially as a Vet but how much we relying on him I do agree.
At the end of the day keeping him on the team is a great asset to us and he still has a great game/experience which would be valuable on any team.
But for the future of the Eagles I am questioning who will fill the void when he does hang it up?
I think that win over Manchester last month was the only time I saw him not used as much as he sat out most the 2nd half for some reason.
As for crowds though our crowds have mostly been excellent and near to a sell out even if we're not the hottest team on the BBL.
But as I mentioned the other week when you look at what the Eagles offer in terms of a game night/hospitality experience.
It's easy to attract crowds and new fans especially when we have such a stunning arena.
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Post by irf on Mar 6, 2022 22:17:02 GMT
As brutal as these posts are I sort of agree and believe it to be the story of the season. Yes we did win things last year such as the Cup and Playoffs so we do still get some success. But in terms of being a team that is capable of winning the championship it doesn't seem like we have that formula. As for Defoe no matter what I'd always rate him especially as a Vet but how much we relying on him I do agree. At the end of the day keeping him on the team is a great asset to us and he still has a great game/experience which would be valuable on any team. But for the future of the Eagles I am questioning who will fill the void when he does hang it up? I think that win over Manchester last month was the only time I saw him not used as much as he sat out most the 2nd half for some reason. As for crowds though our crowds have mostly been excellent and near to a sell out even if we're not the hottest team on the BBL. But as I mentioned the other week when you look at what the Eagles offer in terms of a game night/hospitality experience. It's easy to attract crowds and new fans especially when we have such a stunning arena. Good honest reply You have to recognise issues to be able to improve Eagles are no longer a team who compete to win the League And that has to be the aim I compare them to Man Utd They had a great team a few years back but have gone backwards And don't really seem to have a plan to become the best again Despite the great stadium and great support Everything is in place off the court waiting to be great again But they seem a long way off getting there Need some fresh ideas and impetus I think |
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Post by spacejammer on Mar 6, 2022 23:09:07 GMT
As brutal as these posts are I sort of agree and believe it to be the story of the season. Yes we did win things last year such as the Cup and Playoffs so we do still get some success. But in terms of being a team that is capable of winning the championship it doesn't seem like we have that formula. As for Defoe no matter what I'd always rate him especially as a Vet but how much we relying on him I do agree. At the end of the day keeping him on the team is a great asset to us and he still has a great game/experience which would be valuable on any team. But for the future of the Eagles I am questioning who will fill the void when he does hang it up? I think that win over Manchester last month was the only time I saw him not used as much as he sat out most the 2nd half for some reason. As for crowds though our crowds have mostly been excellent and near to a sell out even if we're not the hottest team on the BBL. But as I mentioned the other week when you look at what the Eagles offer in terms of a game night/hospitality experience. It's easy to attract crowds and new fans especially when we have such a stunning arena. Good honest reply You have to recognise issues to be able to improve Eagles are no longer a team who compete to win the League And that has to be the aim I compare them to Man Utd They had a great team a few years back but have gone backwards And don't really seem to have a plan to become the best again Despite the great stadium and great support Everything is in place off the court waiting to be great again But they seem a long way off getting there Need some fresh ideas and impetus I think I agree mostly except with the bit where you say we don't plan to win the league. I like to think like most teams every season we're fighting and planning to win the league. But more the group of players and the plan does not seem to be working I think is more the case here. And looking at the manor of some of the losses particularly that Bristol loss and how Coach Mac has steered us this season. That is where I'm questioning it as their have been times particularly our last match against Leicester where we lost and looked like we had surrendered and accepted it by HT instead of fighting to the end. I remember with Fab when the team had spells playing not even half as bad in the T/O's he would certainly let them know about it. And at times I have sat there and thought this team needs a wake up call or something. Despite this I do still give Ian credit for getting us 3 trophies especially in 3 seasons which is of course better then nothing. And when your predecessor is the great Fab Flournoy of course it's a hard act to follow. Just under Ian at the moment I feel like we're more of a team that can win one off games like knockout competitions then win the marathon that is the league. Having said knowing the Eagles I believe if they make changes in the summer it is unlikely to be getting a new head coach in. |
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Post by irf on Mar 7, 2022 8:39:37 GMT
Good honest reply You have to recognise issues to be able to improve Eagles are no longer a team who compete to win the League And that has to be the aim I compare them to Man Utd They had a great team a few years back but have gone backwards And don't really seem to have a plan to become the best again Despite the great stadium and great support Everything is in place off the court waiting to be great again But they seem a long way off getting there Need some fresh ideas and impetus I think I agree mostly except with the bit where you say we don't plan to win the league. I like to think like most teams every season we're fighting and planning to win the league. But more the group of players and the plan does not seem to be working I think is more the case here. And looking at the manor of some of the losses particularly that Bristol loss and how Coach Mac has steered us this season. That is where I'm questioning it as their have been times particularly our last match against Leicester where we lost and looked like we had surrendered and accepted it by HT instead of fighting to the end. I remember with Fab when the team had spells playing not even half as bad in the T/O's he would certainly let them know about it. And at times I have sat there and thought this team needs a wake up call or something. Despite this I do still give Ian credit for getting us 3 trophies especially in 3 seasons which is of course better then nothing. And when your predecessor is the great Fab Flournoy of course it's a hard act to follow. Just under Ian at the moment I feel like we're more of a team that can win one off games like knockout competitions then win the marathon that is the league. Having said knowing the Eagles I believe if they make changes in the summer it is unlikely to be getting a new head coach in. Fab himself didn't have the answers once Riders got a deeper and younger squad with enough quality in it I think that's what Eagles need tbh A deeper younger squad |
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Post by erj14 on Mar 7, 2022 9:48:08 GMT
Be honest You could copy and paste that same paragraph for any of the last 5 seasons at Eagles? Couldn't you? The fact you rely so much on Defoe even at the age he is now is one of the reasons you can't compete at the highest level of BBL IMO He shouldn't be playing more than 15 mins from the bench at most at this stage of his career Is there any strategic plan to build something new and fresh up there I'm honestly a little conflicted. They've won 3 trophies under the new coach, but this may have papered over the cracks a little. The trophy in 2020 was a very easy run if truth be told, and that season was probably cut short at the right time as things weren't going well. Last season we had a very talented (but short) roster and ended up winning 2 trophies, beating the best teams on the way to both. I would've loved for us to build on that but Cortez Edwards and Justin Gordon decided to move on, leaving us with a rebuild. They did a bad job of replacing those players and now we're left with probably the worst roster I've seen at the Eagles, when the rest of the league seem to be recruiting better than ever. I have no inside info on what goes on at the Eagles and how they operate, but I've quietly thought to myself (or blindly hoped!) that the organisation has perhaps held some budget back this year with some of the uncertainty around Covid. If that's not the case then they've flat out done a bad job with the recruitment and questions must be asked in the summer and changes made to how they approach it. I do know that bringing through young talent is where they've been woefully short and they seem to be making steps towards improving that, but that will probably be more of a slow burn. I certainly don't want to see any changes made at a coaching level at the moment. We have a young coach at the beginning of his journey and think he should be given the opportunity to grow and learn from the experience of this year. |
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Post by A tall man on Mar 7, 2022 16:56:22 GMT
Quite an interesting read here and I think the problem with Newcastle isn't the coaching but the recruiting. If we're to compare to Rob for example the recruitment process looks completely different.
Rob recruits roles rather than players. For example he needs a back up point guard that will play x y z. That's not a simple find a brit and they'll fit. You couldn't swap dusha for example and have the same consistency. Let's not pretend Rob doesn't recruit a small amount for Loughborough too. Evan Walsh was clearly brought in to be Riders 13th player who will get game time this season in d1. Perhaps next season he'll just be on the bbl roster. If it was about game time for him he would be wearing a Surrey Jersey.
Macs recruitment is quite poor, yes he has signed some good players, he's picked up some good role players and kept some mvp calibre players but I'm not convinced he's planned big picture and all the small parts that go with it. That's the hardest part to learn and realistically the bit you don't get to practise. You can be a coach at all different levels in the UK, you don't recruit whole squads outside of the bbl.
In his first 2 seasons (not including this one) Mac has won 3 trophies
Rob didn't win his first trophy until his 5 season in charge
It takes time
My club won 1 trophy in their entire existence
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Post by spacejammer on Mar 7, 2022 19:27:56 GMT
More valid points on both sides of the coin being made here.
You are right about Rob and his development of Loughborough players particularly Connor Washington and you could argue the same for the likes of Bunyan at Glasgow Rocks over the years.
In terms of talent we probably should have developed more Eddie Matthews was probably one player I wish we could have developed in the same way.
However over the last season watching him when he got minutes it didn't seem like his game had transformed much from where it began which was a little disappointing.
We do have some kids on the bench and I like the look on Yabantu but they rarely get minutes.
However when it comes to young players we do have a some young players and don't lack talent.
But it seems like things for this team clicked to late in the season and whilst we certainly look better now we're not the complete deal.
Going back to coach Mac and Fab, again I agree towards the end of his reign teams like Leicester started to get the better of Fab but that doesn't tarnish his legacy and the fact he made 3 clean sweeps as well!
And as we all said over the years especially since I started watching the league has changed and adapted over the years during his time.
At least by the time he left Fab literally Newcastle with a New Castle when you look at our gorgeous arena now.
And yes that was pun intended.
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Post by baldereagle on Mar 7, 2022 22:46:42 GMT
I can agree with almost everything in this debate, as Bball is a game of such fine margins. At half time last Friday I honestly thought we were seeing a potential playoff winning team, albeit still too reliant on RF/DD. After Q4 it was the same old lack of consistency and passion that left me wondering if Ian is up to the job. He should see the season out but if he can’t bring back consistency Paul Blake should look elsewhere, but please not Vince even though he’s RF’s no.1 fan !
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Post by D44 on Mar 7, 2022 23:34:14 GMT
Random brain diahorea as a long time Eagles fan;
Eagles need to be more ruthless with cutting players if their sh*t. Every other team chops and changes their roster yet Eagles seems to take pride in not doing this.
I don't think Mac has done too much wrong other than some poor recruitment. I still think the biggest issue to his longevity is Steutel being available and living locally. Every other club would be overjoyed with 3 trophies in 2 seasons.
How much different would this season have been if we'd had Matt Scott and Justin Gordon.
How much of a hit has our budget taken from Covid (including loosing Esh as main sponsor). 4 imports, Darius and two role players isn't going to cut it anymore if we want to challenge Riders and Lions.
Darius is so good he's pretty much irreplaceable, we've struggled like mad on the defensive end without him for 6 or 7 years. Not a new problem.
Fletch isn't getting any younger and I'd hate to waste his remaining prime years.
I just want Cortez Edwards back 😭
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Post by erj14 on Mar 8, 2022 0:55:03 GMT
Quite an interesting read here and I think the problem with Newcastle isn't the coaching but the recruiting. If we're to compare to Rob for example the recruitment process looks completely different. Rob recruits roles rather than players. For example he needs a back up point guard that will play x y z. That's not a simple find a brit and they'll fit. You couldn't swap dusha for example and have the same consistency. Let's not pretend Rob doesn't recruit a small amount for Loughborough too. Evan Walsh was clearly brought in to be Riders 13th player who will get game time this season in d1. Perhaps next season he'll just be on the bbl roster. If it was about game time for him he would be wearing a Surrey Jersey. Macs recruitment is quite poor, yes he has signed some good players, he's picked up some good role players and kept some mvp calibre players but I'm not convinced he's planned big picture and all the small parts that go with it. That's the hardest part to learn and realistically the bit you don't get to practise. You can be a coach at all different levels in the UK, you don't recruit whole squads outside of the bbl. In his first 2 seasons (not including this one) Mac has won 3 trophies Rob didn't win his first trophy until his 5 season in charge It takes time My club won 1 trophy in their entire existence Your final sentence really hits home how silly I feel critiquing a bad year. It's why I'm not in the business of sacking coaches after one bad season. I do get more frustrated with the players (Defoe, Fletcher and Gordon aside) because I know how well they're treated compared to what players at other clubs get. Our team can train when they want in top class facilities all on one site and are all very well looked after. They were beaten by a side on Friday night who spent the entire day on a coach to get here and who just wanted it more. I guess it comes back to recruitment and I think the biggest shortfall this team has is character. They don't seem that uncomfortable with losing (apart from the above mentioned players) and there rarely seems to be anyone held to account, almost a little too chummy. A couple players who are bit too quick to be posting thier stats on social media even in a loss as well. Hopefully this is something that is addressed in the summer. It's just disappointing when Europe was being talked about just a few years ago when we opened the new venue, we're a million miles away from that right now. |
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Post by spacejammer on Mar 8, 2022 7:00:49 GMT
I don't think Mac has done too much wrong other than some poor recruitment. I still think the biggest issue to his longevity is Steutel being available and living locally. Every other club would be overjoyed with 3 trophies in 2 seasons.
After seeing him twice with Team GB I would like to see Steutel give it a go.
When he wad on the BBL Show I remember him saying he was coaching a Divison 2 or 3 team I believe down in Tee side.
But he said that he always thinks careful about opportunities before saying yes for because of his family.
Although surely moving to Newcastle would be a step up in the world and better.
I think after Fab left everyone at Eagles wanted someone like Ian rather than a complete outsider because we know Ian.
I think now we are a few seasons post Fab we'd be more open to someone new and curious to see how many people the job would attract if you put the Eagles job on the market.
But as Drew Lasker mentioned on the BBL show coaches do have bad seasons so maybe it would be harsh to get rid of Ian after one season especially after 3 trophies before.
Although again I would like to see a bit more fierceness and pressure in order to make him sweat a little.
Whilst we may not be as mean as football fans were with Brucey I do wonder if he is perhaps sitting a little to comfortably?
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Post by irf on Mar 8, 2022 7:35:34 GMT
Eagles have never assembled a deep squad all the time I've been watching BBL
Even when they were winning the slams they did so with a small group of players
But those players back then were a level above the rest - their "UK players" back then were top import quality effectively
Whereas their competitors didn't have the quality or depth back then to compete with Eagles
As long as the Eagle's squad doesn't go deep they will never challenge for the League again
Deep squads need a different approach and players bought into team effort and being prepared to share minutes and stats
There's a reason why Riders are currently dominating the League
Rob has created a winning formula at Riders that is tried and tested
Other clubs must recognise that
So those other clubs either don't have the budget or the coach and nous to replicate and compete week in week out?
Unless Riders lose their budget or coach Eagles need to step up. As Riders will keep doing the same thing each season
The players may change but the winning system wont
This season the fight for League title is non existent. Although below that it seems anything can happen
Exciting apart from at the top of the League IMO
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Post by A tall man on Mar 8, 2022 7:52:50 GMT
Youre underselling Rob irf, he doesn't do the same thing every season, that's why he's effective. He adapts, many others dont
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Post by irf on Mar 8, 2022 7:57:49 GMT
Youre underselling Rob irf, he doesn't do the same thing every season, that's why he's effective. He adapts, many others dont He often has to replace top quality players However, I think the overall system and mindset remains pretty constant We are never going to get outworked or out run on a court at BBL level I realise when we venture(d) into Europe he has to change things a bit Ps I'm not underselling Rob. I realise he's vital to our ongoing success |
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Post by spacejammer on Mar 8, 2022 10:42:32 GMT
In my time watching us I think the deepest roster I have probably seen us have is like 12 players including 2 kids.
But in having a deep bench you need quality over quantity as well.
But I think IRF may have hit the nail on the head there when he says back when we dominated we didn't have a deep bench but our quality far outweighed other teams.
I remember teams used to come and play us and have star players but didn't have much in terms of a quality bench.
Whereas now I see the benches in the BBL as well as the starters are alot stronger.
But that to me suggests teams over the years have adapted to beat the Eagles whereas the Eagles have not adapted to beat the bigger rivals.
Although having said that looking at this season we're not the only team that has not adapted as well.
Plus as we can see in the Lions case who were probably more focused on Europe having to big of a bench can cause a huge problem as well.
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Post by stevetino on Mar 8, 2022 12:43:52 GMT
Great discussion, the like that wasn’t happening on that other forum shall we say
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Post by blueskies99 on Mar 8, 2022 12:54:14 GMT
Youre underselling Rob irf, he doesn't do the same thing every season, that's why he's effective. He adapts, many others dont .....different teams but same DNA..... |
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Post by irf on Mar 8, 2022 15:55:04 GMT
Youre underselling Rob irf, he doesn't do the same thing every season, that's why he's effective. He adapts, many others dont .....different teams but same DNA..... I've felt bad for Rob the amount of times he's built a great team and then had to replace and build another great team He tends to lose important players to bigger and better things (or they retire) I wonder how much longer we can keep Geno |
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