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Post by SamH on Feb 9, 2022 21:29:37 GMT
Which competitions in the BBL do you think are most important or prestigious, and which ones not so much? I always felt winning the league is the best thing, as it says that team has been the best across the entire season. When Brighton won in 2004 it was absolutely wonderful, the celebrations were so much bigger and better than after winning the cup.
So I'd say:
League
Playoffs
Cup
Trophy
I put cup ahead of trophy because it dates back further so there's more prestige but also because if you lose, you're done. You could lose a trophy game and still go on to win it.
Thats just my opinion though! What do others think?
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Post by massiveridersfan on Feb 9, 2022 22:31:01 GMT
League then playoffs.
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Post by LTfan on Feb 9, 2022 22:48:49 GMT
Which competitions in the BBL do you think are most important or prestigious, and which ones not so much? I always felt winning the league is the best thing, as it says that team has been the best across the entire season. When Brighton won in 2004 it was absolutely wonderful, the celebrations were so much bigger and better than after winning the cup. So I'd say: League Playoffs Cup Trophy I put cup ahead of trophy because it dates back further so there's more prestige but also because if you lose, you're done. You could lose a trophy game and still go on to win it. Thats just my opinion though! What do others think? I agree - League, Play-Offs, Cup, Trophy. Although I don’t agree with your logic. You can’t lose a Trophy game and still go on to win it as you say. If you lose a Trophy game you’re finished, it’s one and done. And for that reason I rate the Cup above the Trophy. Winning the Cup requires more wins than winning the Trophy. |
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Post by notoriousbigz on Feb 9, 2022 22:53:43 GMT
Ahhhh Im going to upset folk on here aren't I?
Ive done this before and been met with vehment opposition, but I rank as follows:
Playoffs
League
Cup
Trophy
I actually dont think the BBL agree with me either and theres nowhere near enough emphasis on the playoffs for me.
I always make the point having been in and around the Everton Tigers camp in the season they finished 6th seed and won the playoffs that American players really do give an extra 10/20% come playoff time and I find the intensity ramps up a notch and the standards a lot better to watch as a result - its obviously ingrained into them from when they were young with the way american sport is structured but I do think if youre going to have an end of season competition seeded based on league standings, then it has to be the flagship competition. Best of 5 games should be the way but we've only just got to a best of 3 situation so I doubt we'll see it soon.
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Post by milehigh on Feb 10, 2022 6:34:14 GMT
Winning the league requires consistancy over the whole season, for me that is the most important competition.
The play-offs are the most important of the remaining competitions, and probably has the highest profile.
The cup and trophy can be decided by a lucky shot, poor officiating or a team having a bad night so the best teams don't always win.
With the January final, the cup rewards sides that start teh season well.
Partly due to the Trophy final being played at a venue that, for most spectators, is very time consuming and expensive to attend, the trophy is the least attractive competition for me.
Yes I have attended the Trophy final several times, so am speaking from experience.
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Post by basketballjoe3 on Feb 10, 2022 7:11:26 GMT
Playoffs. Ask the players, it's universal.
Last man standing. League is such a British thing and is b*llocks.
It is purely a tool to determine seeding. For the playoffs.
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Post by notoriousbigz on Feb 10, 2022 8:36:49 GMT
Playoffs. Ask the players, it's universal. Last man standing. League is such a British thing and is b*llocks. It is purely a tool to determine seeding. For the playoffs. See this is what I think, but at the same time the logic does follow that the league winners have been the best over the course of a season. Its a difficult choice of best over a long time against the condensed intensity and pressure of playoff basketball. I guess it works in the states because they play so much basketball in the regular season that teams take "nights off" and the quality is a bit diluted - I prefer watching college ball to the NBA regular season - and you get everyones best game come the playoffs. We dont have as many games or as many teams here so its far less excusable to be a bit lax in the regular season. Im arguing with myself here arent I?!? But yeah, its not as straight forward but in terms of playoff basketball I don't think theres anything like it. |
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Post by spacejammer on Feb 10, 2022 8:54:43 GMT
For me it would be...
-Championship first
As the team that wins the championship is the team that has been the best over the course of the season and you have to play well the longest to earn it.
-Playoffs
The Playoffs probably second although I wonder if they'll ever make it a series thing and play a best of 3 like they were planning to before Covid.
Afterall last year they tried to jazz it up in order to have more fun with Sky Sports in the May madness.
The Cup and Trophy are a joint if you ask me.
I'd say Trophy is exciting for the knockout stage and having to play every round.
But the Cup probably gets more popularity and is like a mid-season competition.
If we win the Cup I'm always thankful as I know it means whatever happens the rest of the season at least we have won one trophy.
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Post by SamH on Feb 10, 2022 9:39:49 GMT
Interesting. I'm obviously a bit out of touch having not closely followed things for a while. Previously the trophy involved group stages with the top teams advancing to knockout stages, so you could lose a group game but still progress. If it's now straight knockout, how does it differ to the cup?
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sm11
Bench Warmer
Posts: 87
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Post by sm11 on Feb 10, 2022 10:18:25 GMT
I want it to be the play offs but i think it is league because unfortunately most people say it is. I honestly think the BBLs entire competition structure is a much bigger problem than people realise it is. I cannot think of any other league in the world that hands out 4 trophies a season. Manchester United might have won the treble and Manchester City might have won the domestic treble but 3 different organisations have awarded those trophies and have collected/distributed the income from the matches played, which spreads the money around a bit and gives a different feel to each competition. The BBL however expects fans to develop feelings for 4 different competitions, 3 of which are basically the same just being played at different points of the year and 1 of which people seem to seek the most yet almost the entire league are out of contention within weeks. People joke on here about how most attendees at BBL games have never even seen the league table, well in my opinion this is why. The end result is you get a nice cute small fan base and not many of them really develop strong passionate feelings for the club there going to see.
The BBL always defends it by saying they need the income from the 3 finals, but when ever i watch the Trophy final it doesnt look that well attended, i hear a lot of tickets are being sold on the cheap on group on. Do they really make that much on the Trophy final. Im not convinced. As for the league, i agree with basketball joe league title races are so boring, they feel so wrong, teams in 2nd and 3rd waiting and hoping for the team in 1st to lose, thats not entertaining and sport is supposed to be entertaining. I still think that some times even leagues dont produce the right winner some times. Some times a league will have a team that races in front only to really dip later on meanwhile another took a month of two to get there but have developed into something special but just didnt quite catch up in time, but we all know that if you made them go through another round robin of fixtures that we will have a different winner. League defenders go on and on about consistency and how unfair the idea of a lower placed team getting hot at the right time coming and stealing the prize. But you know what, those are the recipes for some of the greatest recipes in sport, super bowl 42 is the obvious one, and thats what you want to do create lasting feelings for fans in victory and defeat.
What i would like the BBL to do...
Eliminate the league title, dont give them anything shiny, no trophies or medals, keep your list of previous winners on your website but end the list here and now, no glorifying at all of the winner and simply just state that they have the first seed in the play offs. As for the play offs, the BBLs current play off format really doesnt do enough to convince anyone. Most of the league qualifies to just a single or aggregate elimination 8 team bracket. Its not good enough. Trim the field to say top 4, best of 3 semis, O2 final. Shouldnt be to hard to fit in or arrange. The play off final will finally go back to feeling special like it did from 1999/2000 to 2001/2002 during the conference era.
Get rid of one of the Cups, brand it how you like, Cup, Trophy, Shield what ever, but have it at the NIA in January as it has sold well in recent years.
The result will be that the BBL only champions 2 teams, and the league will have much more cutting edge to it.
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Post by SamH on Feb 10, 2022 10:57:04 GMT
Interesting ideas sm11 but I think the playoffs should stay top 8 because to only have to win the semis and final doesn't really feel like it would be that prestigious. At least having to beat 3 teams increases the challenge a bit. I personally think best of 5 series would create more opportunity for drama and again, add to the prestige of winning. Maybe keeping the best of 1 final at a big venue though, the ultimate showdown.
What I definitely never want to see again is aggregate scoring across 2 games. Yuk!
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Post by LTfan on Feb 10, 2022 10:57:49 GMT
Interesting. I'm obviously a bit out of touch having not closely followed things for a while. Previously the trophy involved group stages with the top teams advancing to knockout stages, so you could lose a group game but still progress. If it's now straight knockout, how does it differ to the cup? The Trophy is a straight knockout, in a bracket format that is drawn at random. The Cup has initial group stages before a quarter, semi, and final format - all played over two legs apart from the final. So you can win the Trophy with a favourable draw and a few lucky wins. The Cup requires more wins, more consistency. That's why personally I rate the Cup above the Trophy. |
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Post by LTfan on Feb 10, 2022 11:19:56 GMT
Ahhhh Im going to upset folk on here aren't I? Ive done this before and been met with vehment opposition, but I rank as follows: Playoffs League Cup Trophy I actually dont think the BBL agree with me either and theres nowhere near enough emphasis on the playoffs for me. I always make the point having been in and around the Everton Tigers camp in the season they finished 6th seed and won the playoffs that American players really do give an extra 10/20% come playoff time and I find the intensity ramps up a notch and the standards a lot better to watch as a result - its obviously ingrained into them from when they were young with the way american sport is structured but I do think if youre going to have an end of season competition seeded based on league standings, then it has to be the flagship competition. Best of 5 games should be the way but we've only just got to a best of 3 situation so I doubt we'll see it soon. We haven't even got to a 'best of 3' format yet. It was planned for the season that got cut short due to the pandemic, it didn't happen last season, and isn't planned for this season. I'm hoping we do see it soon though. Although I did enjoy the 'May Madness' format last season, but that probably only worked because of the limitations brought on by the pandemic. |
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Post by LTfan on Feb 10, 2022 11:24:29 GMT
Playoffs. Ask the players, it's universal. Last man standing. League is such a British thing and is b*llocks. It is purely a tool to determine seeding. For the playoffs. See this is what I think, but at the same time the logic does follow that the league winners have been the best over the course of a season. Its a difficult choice of best over a long time against the condensed intensity and pressure of playoff basketball. I guess it works in the states because they play so much basketball in the regular season that teams take "nights off" and the quality is a bit diluted - I prefer watching college ball to the NBA regular season - and you get everyones best game come the playoffs. We dont have as many games or as many teams here so its far less excusable to be a bit lax in the regular season. Im arguing with myself here arent I?!? But yeah, its not as straight forward but in terms of playoff basketball I don't think theres anything like it. It's difficult to compare the NBA to the BBL. Although the NBA puts all focus on the Play-Offs, it does still have Eastern and Western Conference Champions. Although winning those titles isn't as iconic as winning the Play-Offs, they still mean and count for something. And I suppose you could liken winning the Eastern/Western Conferences in the NBA to winning the League (Championship) in the BBL. |
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jumbo
Bench Warmer
Posts: 58
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Post by jumbo on Feb 10, 2022 12:25:43 GMT
Really difficult to compare the two. The nba champions will play almost an entire bbl seasons worth of play off games. Bbl champions would play a week's worth of nba games.
I agree on the whole with what's been said before, both above and in previous discussions about this. I think pretty much everyone who watches the bbl wants the playoffs to be the most important competition. But whilst pretty much the entire league qualifies and you only need to win 3 games to win the title for me the league is still number 1.
If it was 3 game series that improves things. 5 seems a long way off but that would change it completely. I might be in the minority but from a basketball point of view I'd prefer the finals to be a series too. I get the excitement of a title showdown at the 02 and I also understand the potential financial necessity but from a purely basketball point of view watching the two best teams go head to head over a series would be great.
I think the importance of league winners is an interesting one in general. The nba pays no attention to it other than significance for the play offs, but then their league has literally hundreds of meaningless games every season. I'm a big nba fan, have been over to a few games, have watched league pass extensively for years, but from a quality and competition standpoint the 82 game system is way off and purely for TV revenue so they have their own issues.
League works so well in football as you have promotion/relegation/playoffs or title race/euro places/relegation depending on your level. Means most teams are playing for something for most of the season. And then you have cup competitions on top. Hard to replicate that with a single division of 10 teams when europe is out of the question for most of them.
Also agree with the trophy/cup being overkill and 1 being plenty
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Post by LTfan on Feb 10, 2022 13:24:23 GMT
We're forgetting the British Basketball All-Stars Championship! Surely that's the crown jewel of BBL titles.  Seriously though, I do miss it. It was a great day out, and neither the Cup final, Trophy final or Play-Offs final brings the British basketball community all together like it did. It would be great to see it return, or some similar event that features so many teams in one place and therefore so many fans from around the country. |
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Post by basketballjoe3 on Feb 10, 2022 17:03:52 GMT
Going on the NBA vs BBL theme, there's a reason the 73-9 Warriors are ridiculed so much.
In theory, let's say a banged up Newcastle scrape in as 8th seed this season then play 5 guys 40 mins each for 5 games in the playoffs and repeat as May Madness playoff champions.
Which is the better team, the one that won the league because they were lucky with no injuries, but beat all comers as they had the depth, or the one that beats everyone when it truly matters because there is no alternative but to win if you want to advance.
In this scenario the coach did their job by successfully getting them in to the playoffs despite the injuries.
I realise it's personal preference and probably doesn't help with the playoffs in NBL being meaningless in terms of promotion if you have a lower league finish and therefore potentially dilutes their impact in the UK.
Going back to my hypothetical, let's say Newcastle met an undefeated Riders in the final and won. Are they lucky, or are they the best team over the distance of a season plus playoffs because when the chips were down they beat the team that was expected to win?
They took on all challengers (opposition and injuries inclusive) and over the distance were (in this scenario at least) victorious.
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Post by reefram on Feb 10, 2022 18:11:22 GMT
Playoffs then league for me and pretty much all the teams and players I have been involved with over many years.
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Post by A tall man on Feb 10, 2022 19:58:23 GMT
Playoffs - Number one, to quote a rugby ref this isn't soccer.
Trophy - Because I like upsets like Solent from the other season
Cup - I like a January final day, reignites some fire for the rest of the season
The league as far as I'm concerned is a seeding tournament that doesn't need a trophy but as we're British and very few peoples first sport was basketball we rate it higher than it is.
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jumbo
Bench Warmer
Posts: 58
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Post by jumbo on Feb 10, 2022 20:03:45 GMT
I get the argument about winning when it matters. But essentially the cup, trophy and playoffs are all straight knock out tournaments featuring the same teams, just at different times of the season. Why does winning a win or go home game in the playoffs mean one thing and winning the same game in the cup or trophy mean less. More jeopardy given its the end of the season and end of the road for those rosters. But not convinced it tells you who is the better team any more than any other knockout win.
Using this season as an example, let's say Riders go on to win the league including going 3-0 against Lions. And they won the cup with essentially an 80 minute wire to wire victory in a win or go home scenario. If they then lost in the playoff finals to them Im not convinced that means Lions are a better team than Riders. Maybe they are. Peaked at a different time of year possibly. Maybe luck on the day. Maybe injuries.
Not sure you can count injuries too much either way though as they happen to all teams at all times and can effect all competitions. Had Lions not had covid they could well have won the cup last year. Had Geno not got injured and been playing hurt Riders may have won the play offs. Record books don't say anything about injuries.
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