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Post by mac on May 17, 2022 10:22:39 GMT
How is it the BBL can sell out the O2 for the Playoff finals but struggle to maintain BBL clubs in London? If circumstances hadn't forced Vince to relocate Lions from Milton Keynes there would be no BBL basketball in the capital. Teams have come and gone but cannot attract fans. Why is that? Even historically you had London Towers who were hugely successful. Yet I can remember traveling to Crystal Palace and there would only be a couple of hundred in attendance. I remember the Match program (which was huge) being chock-a-block with adverts. Selling advertising seemed no problem so why weren't they selling it to the fans? Is it a marketing problem or what? What can or should be done? LTfan, anyone, thoughts?
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Post by LTfan on May 17, 2022 10:53:57 GMT
How is it the BBL can sell out the O2 for the Playoff finals but struggle to maintain BBL clubs in London? If circumstances hadn't forced Vince to relocate Lions from Milton Keynes there would be no BBL basketball in the capital. Teams have come and gone but cannot attract fans. Why is that? Even historically you had London Towers who were hugely successful. Yet I can remember traveling to Crystal Palace and there would only be a couple of hundred in attendance. I remember the Match program (which was huge) being chock-a-block with adverts. Selling advertising seemed no problem so why weren't they selling it to the fans? Is it a marketing problem or what? What can or should be done? LTfan, anyone, thoughts? It's an age old question... I think the biggest challenge is the size of the competition in a city like London. There are so many things competing for your time and money, so much more than any other BBL franchise location, it's just such a crowded market. Oversaturated in fact. I know there's an argument the population is also bigger, but trying to stand out in such a crowded market is difficult none the less. Marketing and advertising is vital. But that costs money. A lot of money. Having said that there's lots that can be done without breaking the bank, and the London Lions aren't even particularly good at that. I know I talk about (the lack of) merchandise a lot... but that's been a spectacular failure. Merchandise isn't just about making some extra money on game night (although Lions have been stupid to not capitalise on that, it's easy money), it's about having people walking around London with essentially a London Lions advert on their chest at no cost. Having said that, the crowds and atmosphere at the Copper Box arena the last couple of months have been the best they've ever been. They just need to ensure those crowds are return customers. Also, it's probably obvious that there's a difference between getting 16,000 people to attend a basketball event at The O2 once a year add getting 2,000-3,000 people to attend the Copper Box every other week. The BBL start marketing the Play -Off Finals almost a year in advance, so what you're seeing on the day is a year's worth of effort. But London has huge potential, and if you can crack it you're on to a winner. That's why I wouldn't agree that if it wasn't for Vince relocating from Milton Keynes there wouldn't be a London team in the BBL. There'll always be a London team in the BBL, and the BBL themselves will do whatever they can to ensure that. Just look at the London teams that were allowed in between the London Towers years and the London Lions years. They wouldn't have been in the league if it wasn't for the fact they were London based. The BBL needs London more than London needs the BBL. |
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Post by dexter on May 17, 2022 11:44:49 GMT
Great answer by LTfan. I'm not a Londoner but this is my take on sports in London.
The BBL Playoffs final is essentially a different market to London Lions regular season games. And I see this as a success of the BBL rather than a failure of London Lions. To be a feature of the London sporting calendar is massive, and to fill the O2 arena is amazing. It is an annual event, like the NFL game in London, or Wimbledon. There is a market in London for sporting events, which doesn't mean there's a big market for a team in that sport.
The sports I see as being on a similar level to the BBL in Britain are netball, ice hockey and field hockey.
England men's and women's field hockey teams are trying to become a feature of the London sporting calendar. They had plans to play two double header internationals against Netherlands (the best team in the world) in June at the Twickenham Stoop. They have had to abandon that and move it to Queen Elizabeth Park due to poor ticket sales.
Netball Superleague has more teams than the BBL, get higher weekly attendances, and more views online, but their final is at the Copper Box Arena, not at the O2.
The EIHL (Elite Ice Hockey League) doesn't even have a team in London.
In terms of having that big annual London event, the BBL is winning. In terms of having a professional team in London the BBL is winning (compared to those other minor sports). In terms of being a league with lots of teams and big attendances the BBL is currently behind netball and ice hockey. But that's no reason to be disheartened. We should be encouraged that there is a market for professional indoor team sports leagues.
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Post by A tall man on May 17, 2022 11:50:19 GMT
I think its about identity. Clubs in British survive on their identity. You can pick any established club and you know who they are. London, I don't see have one. Maybe it's the size of the city which makes it hard
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Post by LTfan on May 17, 2022 12:42:14 GMT
I think its about identity. Clubs in British survive on their identity. You can pick any established club and you know who they are. London, I don't see have one. Maybe it's the size of the city which makes it hard That's true too... sometimes being a 'Londoner' isn't specific enough for a lot of people to associate with, unless on something like an international scale. In an ideal world you'd perhaps have North, South, East, and West London teams in the BBL. Just look at the Premier League, nationally and in London, to see what I'm talking about. Also, you can live in London and it still take you nearly 2 hours to get to a London Lions game (that's a comment on the size of London, not the location of the Copper Box). |
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Post by irf on May 17, 2022 12:47:15 GMT
I think its about identity. Clubs in British survive on their identity. You can pick any established club and you know who they are. London, I don't see have one. Maybe it's the size of the city which makes it hard 100 per cent it's the size of the city I think Mac mentioned in the other thread that Newcastle have a BBL retail store No idea where it is but I assume it will be central and all the people in and around Newcastle will be able to access it easily enough on a visit to the city centre Where would you start with putting a retail presence in London It's very much about identity as well There's no such thing as London Football Club Instead I hazard a guess without counting there must be 20 plus different professional men's football teams in London and its suburbs? (Edit just checked - their are 17 Pro Clubs in London) Each with their own branding and identity and fanbase And each mainly marketing to a smaller more localised target audience |
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Post by milehigh on May 17, 2022 13:24:29 GMT
In other cities in the BBL the marketing and audience profile is spread other a large and diverse demographic. Is the same true for the London side?
Does the audience co-inside with the target audience for the comercial partners? Do London Lions offer tickets with additional value to attract companies who are bringing corporate guest, or just people who want a more comfortable experience?
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Post by LTfan on May 17, 2022 14:10:06 GMT
In other cities in the BBL the marketing and audience profile is spread other a large and diverse demographic. Is the same true for the London side? Does the audience co-inside with the target audience for the comercial partners? Do London Lions offer tickets with additional value to attract copanies who are bringing corporate guest, or just people who want a more comfortable experience? Sam from Hoopsfix once made a comment that typically the BBL fanbase is white and older skewing... with the exception of London where they're typically black and younger skewing. And the London Lions certainly market themselves to this audience. Which is fine, you've got to target your audience. But you've got to be careful not to do so to an extent that you alienate everyone else (I've certainly felt it at times). |
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Post by topcata on May 17, 2022 15:02:09 GMT
In other cities in the BBL the marketing and audience profile is spread other a large and diverse demographic. Is the same true for the London side? Does the audience co-inside with the target audience for the comercial partners? Do London Lions offer tickets with additional value to attract copanies who are bringing corporate guest, or just people who want a more comfortable experience? Sam from Hoopsfix once made a comment that typically the BBL fanbase is white and older skewing... with the exception of London where they're typically black and younger skewing. And the London Lions certainly market themselves to this audience. Which is fine, you've got to target your audience. But you've got to be careful not to do so to an extent that you alienate everyone else (I've certainly felt it at times). Agree with this! As a (middle aged) black male I cringe at the social media Lions produce. I take the kids occasionally but they aren’t interested in random London rappers or grime artists. Don’t think that will ever attract anyone to the games? And I wish they wouldn’t try to appear so young “the most fire halftime show” (what does that even mean)? |
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Post by LTfan on May 17, 2022 15:07:17 GMT
Sam from Hoopsfix once made a comment that typically the BBL fanbase is white and older skewing... with the exception of London where they're typically black and younger skewing. And the London Lions certainly market themselves to this audience. Which is fine, you've got to target your audience. But you've got to be careful not to do so to an extent that you alienate everyone else (I've certainly felt it at times). Agree with this! As a (middle aged) black male I cringe at the social media Lions produce. I take the kids occasionally but they aren’t interested in random London rappers or grime artists. Don’t think that will ever attract anyone to the games? And I wish they wouldn’t try to appear so young “the most fire halftime show” (what does that even mean)? As a (almost middle aged) white male I agree with everything you've said. So in that respect they're failing on all accounts.  Maybe us being over the age of 30 is their/our problem.  |
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Post by milehigh on May 17, 2022 15:16:11 GMT
This actually goes beyond London, and helps explain the lack of big comercial backing for the game.
There is a reason why large financial services companies back sports like Rugby Union, Tennis and Rowing. Just look at the demographic of the audience.
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Post by dexter on May 17, 2022 15:44:12 GMT
This actually goes beyond London, and helps explain the lack of big comercial backing for the game. There is a reason why large financial services companies back sports like Rugby Union, Tennis and Rowing. Just look at the demographic of the audience. In my experience which is mostly outside of London, all sports crowds are old and white. Especially football, rugby and cricket. Ice hockey and netball crowds seem to have more young fans. |
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Post by mac on May 17, 2022 16:37:18 GMT
I think its about identity. Clubs in British survive on their identity. You can pick any established club and you know who they are. London, I don't see have one. Maybe it's the size of the city which makes it hard 100 per cent it's the size of the city I think Mac mentioned in the other thread that Newcastle have a BBL retail store No idea where it is but I assume it will be central and all the people in and around Newcastle will be able to access it easily enough on a visit to the city centre Where would you start with putting a retail presence in London It's very much about identity as well There's no such thing as London Football Club Instead I hazard a guess without counting there must be 20 plus different professional men's football teams in London and its suburbs? (Edit just checked - their are 17 Pro Clubs in London) Each with their own branding and identity and fanbase And each mainly marketing to a smaller more localised target audience Club shop is in the Vertu Motors Arena. Open for click and collect (covid?) from 8am until 6pm Monday to Thursday and until 4pm on Fridays. Pretty sure pre covid it was open daily, one of the benefits of having your own place. I am a bit out of touch with the Arena due to said covid. I agree about merchandising, every club should have a web shop and merchandise available at every game as a bare minimum. Advertise it via social media/email lists. Biggest priority though is getting people through the door and then building a following. No good alienating your target audience. Neither should you have a poor product just because it's London. |
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Post by mac on May 17, 2022 16:53:50 GMT
In other cities in the BBL the marketing and audience profile is spread other a large and diverse demographic. Is the same true for the London side? Does the audience co-inside with the target audience for the comercial partners? Do London Lions offer tickets with additional value to attract copanies who are bringing corporate guest, or just people who want a more comfortable experience? I don't think there there is a more diverse city than London. Newcastle, Leicester, Sheffield have populations of approximately 300/400 and 500,000 and sustain well run franchises. They also have well attended other professional sport. London has a population of just under 9,000,000 with just one franchise. On population alone they should have 18 clubs. I know it's not that simple but London should have more clubs, many more. I don't understand why. Edit, just had a thought. Could it be as simple as cost of living? |
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Post by mac on May 17, 2022 17:22:26 GMT
I think its about identity. Clubs in British survive on their identity. You can pick any established club and you know who they are. London, I don't see have one. Maybe it's the size of the city which makes it hard . Good point so why not break that down. London is only so big because it has overgrown the surrounding towns and villages. Have those identities been lost? |
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Post by A tall man on May 17, 2022 19:12:06 GMT
I think its about identity. Clubs in British survive on their identity. You can pick any established club and you know who they are. London, I don't see have one. Maybe it's the size of the city which makes it hard . Good point so why not break that down. London is only so big because it has overgrown the surrounding towns and villages. Have those identities been lost? Although I've been there, I have no idea what area of London the copperbox sits, could they not incorporate that identity to build their own. Look what the royals did with the lav twins, instant identity. Outside of basketball look what united did with the asain player all those years ago, united became the football team in that continent. |
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Post by dexter on May 17, 2022 19:18:43 GMT
. Good point so why not break that down. London is only so big because it has overgrown the surrounding towns and villages. Have those identities been lost? Although I've been there, I have no idea what area of London the copperbox sits, could they not incorporate that identity to build their own. Look what the royals did with the lav twins, instant identity. Outside of basketball look what united did with the asain player all those years ago, united became the football team in that continent. This is where I think the BBL has real potential. Basketball is growing and has potential to grow in Southern Africa, East Africa and India. The BBL could be the league for players and fans in those regions. Especially in Commonwealth Africa where they don't have much prospects of having professional leagues themselves. |
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Post by irf on May 17, 2022 19:22:19 GMT
. Good point so why not break that down. London is only so big because it has overgrown the surrounding towns and villages. Have those identities been lost? Although I've been there, I have no idea what area of London the copperbox sits, could they not incorporate that identity to build their own. Look what the royals did with the lav twins, instant identity. Outside of basketball look what united did with the asain player all those years ago, united became the football team in that continent. West Ham's new stadium is next to the Copper Box virtually |
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Post by irf on May 17, 2022 19:23:46 GMT
Although I've been there, I have no idea what area of London the copperbox sits, could they not incorporate that identity to build their own. Look what the royals did with the lav twins, instant identity. Outside of basketball look what united did with the asain player all those years ago, united became the football team in that continent. West Ham's new stadium is next to the Copper Box virtually If they started playing in Claret and Blue and called themselves West Ham Lions they would get plenty of West Ham fans interested |
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Post by topcata on May 17, 2022 20:20:08 GMT
Lions will be at Uni of East London next season whilst they look for another larger venue due to issues with Copper Box
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