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Post by tallerman on Apr 24, 2024 20:58:05 GMT
Local paper announcing how much pats have lost this year, just shy of 200k! They constantly promoted sold out games, didnt exactly have a deep bench and cut a lot of staff. I have no idea how they continue, surely manchester must be worse?
Article :https://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/news/plymouth-news/plymouth-city-patriots-makes-statement-9243768
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Post by dexter on Apr 24, 2024 21:49:11 GMT
That isn't a big loss. I mean if they were funded as part of a bigger organisation that isn't a big budget really.
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Post by tallerman on Apr 25, 2024 6:36:03 GMT
Christ, the bbl sure is a different place if a 200k loss isnt a big deal!
If losinf 200k gets you bottom, nobody is going to buy your franchise
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Post by LTfan on Apr 25, 2024 8:10:25 GMT
Plymouth's biggest financial problem is venue. As far as I'm aware there's really no other option than The Pavilions, and The Pavilions is very expensive to hire. If the rumours are true, it's even more expensive to hire than the Copper Box in London, which is madness.
Plymouth have a good fanbase, and if there was a more suitable venue there's a good chance they could be a profitable franchise. To be honest the fanbase is the only thing keeping the franchise going, the league doesn't want to throw away a decent sized loyal established fanbase, but with losses like this it must be getting harder and harder to justify.
What's interesting is that the article says the franchise still has the full financial support of the BBL/777, suggesting they'll be back next season. I'd have thought that given the current situation Plymouth City Patriots would have been first in line for the axe, but maybe that's not the case.
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Post by dexter on Apr 25, 2024 8:13:24 GMT
This is from the Telegraph for some context.
Premiership Rugby clubs post losses of almost £25m for 2022-23 season
Saracens posted biggest losses of over £5 million, while Newcastle Falcons have not yet made their finances for 2022-23 period public
Ben Coles,
RUGBY REPORTER
29 March 2024
Nine of 10 Gallagher Premiership clubs have posted financial losses which total almost £25 million for the 2022-23 season.
Newcastle Falcons have yet to publicly post their results for the last financial year but of the data available, nine clubs cumulatively made a loss of around £23.5 million.
Saracens posted the biggest loss at £5,295,310, with the club’s turnover of £23,206,354 falling well short of their £28,559,147 budget.
Bristol Bears, backed by the billionaire Steve Lansdown, finished with a total loss of £4,554,814. Harlequins posted the highest turnover, £26,813,85, but had the largest budget at £30,392,791, resulting in a loss of £3,648.893.
Gloucester produced the best results due to having a budget of £18,291,675, which was marginally higher than the club’s turnover of £18,162,660, making an eventual loss of £393,079. Two other clubs produced losses which were below the half a million figure, with Sale making a £439,294 loss and Northampton a £467,836 loss.
Sale notably had the lowest turnover, £11,735,339, but also the lowest budget of £16,496,292. They were also one of only two clubs, along with fellow Premiership finalists Saracens, to produce a positive net financing costs figure of £258,953.
The results also disclose the number of people employed by each club, with Exeter recording the highest figure of 354 of which 156 were coaches and players. Bristol employed the fewest number of people (155) and number of players and staff (87).
Exeter’s financial results, with a loss of £3,994,469, included the hotel built on site at Sandy Park, which made a loss of £2m over the course of the financial year. The hotel has since been sold off, with Exeter’s chairman and chief executive, Tony Rowe, buying an undisclosed stake in the Sandy Park Hotel back in December 2022 to help pay off the club’s Covid-19 loans.
Exeter said at the time: “The fee paid for the shares by Mr Rowe not only provides an injection of capital to keep cashflow going, but will also help service substantial debts accrued by Exeter Rugby Club due to the impact of the Covid pandemic in 2020. Directors will use “their best endeavours” to retain “at least” 26 per cent shareholding in the hotel company.”
Premiership Rugby has been contacted for comment.
Analysis: Rugby still feeling Covid after effects
Perhaps the main factor to consider when analysing the latest accounts for the nine Premiership clubs, with Newcastle still to come, is that teams across the league are still feeling the financial effects of the pandemic, hit hard by that loss of matchday revenue.
Seeing that amount of red on a spreadsheet naturally leads to concern but among the numbers there are some positives, such as Northampton posting a record turnover of nearly £22 million, up by a million on the previous year. Even a club in as strong a position as Northampton is still going to be confronted with costs, with their cash balance dropping due to the construction of the club’s new High Performance Centre.
The Premiership is still reeling from the loss of Worcester Warriors, Wasps and London Irish during the previous season and, predominantly, clubs appear to be cautious. Take Sale’s budget, around £16.5 million, being almost half of that of Harlequins (£30.4 million).
The same long-term concerns remain. Certain clubs relying on the large investment of owners with deep pockets, a TV deal which lags far behind the money paid for the rights to the Top 14 in France, the fact that clubs with excellent attendance figures and large capacities – Leicester, Northampton, Gloucester – are occasionally falling short of making a profit. Not forgetting that the salary cap ceiling is set to rise next season from £5 million to £6.4 million – the timing of which seems highly questionable – or how the Covid-19 loans from the government will be repaid.
These are all existing issues which require long-term solutions but right now, the aim across the Premiership appears to be to create stability.
At the same time, sources close to the league are optimistic about an increase in supporter numbers this season at matches, with gate numbers continuing to climb and up by around five per cent on the previous season. The more people back in grounds, the more revenue. Right now, every extra pound feels important.
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Post by silverbirch on Apr 25, 2024 8:28:21 GMT
AT present there isn't any Financial Fair Play (FFP) or sustainability rules in place for the BBL so in theory clubs can spend what they like and are allowed to make as bigger loss as they see fit. This obviously raises huge red flags against future sustainability of clubs and the league which was high priority in the years pre-777. But since the European dream started and the cap was lifted completely the potential risk on clubs failing financially has risen drastically.
The other challenge clubs like Manchester and Plymouth have (although offset by being owned by the league) is that although the loses are minor compared to some of the referenced rugby and football annual losses, these organisations have high value assets such as training grounds and stadia. Manchester and Plymouth have nothing, so their operating structure is purely cash flow, if you remove the safety blanket of the BBL.
I do struggle to see what the future of Plymouth is if they can't find a Steve Tominay type local millionaire who will invest in not only the team but also physical infrastructure.
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Post by docker on Apr 25, 2024 8:46:17 GMT
I'm not an accountant, but I don't think it's accurate to say they made a 200k loss in 2022-23. They have only filed a balance sheet and this shows net liabilities of £194k of which £141k is "amounts owed to parent undertaking" - presumably a deferred franchise fee due to the BBL.
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Post by LTfan on Apr 25, 2024 8:47:12 GMT
AT present there isn't any Financial Fair Play (FFP) or sustainability rules in place for the BBL so in theory clubs can spend what they like and are allowed to make as bigger loss as they see fit. This obviously raises huge red flags against future sustainability of clubs and the league which was high priority in the years pre-777. But since the European dream started and the cap was lifted completely the potential risk on clubs failing financially has risen drastically. The other challenge clubs like Manchester and Plymouth have (although offset by being owned by the league) is that although the loses are minor compared to some of the referenced rugby and football annual losses, these organisations have high value assets such as training grounds and stadia. Manchester and Plymouth have nothing, so their operating structure is purely cash flow, if you remove the safety blanket of the BBL. I do struggle to see what the future of Plymouth is if they can't find a Steve Tominay type local millionaire who will invest in not only the team but also physical infrastructure. Didn't they sort of have that in Carl Heslop? Ok, he's not in the same league as Steve Timoney, but he was a local businessman who led and funded the team - and even got quite far in plans to build a new 'arena'... but the costs clearly got too much and he (understandably) jumped ship. Also, for context, when talking about Plymouths losses it's probably worth remembering that Plymouth Raiders racked up £800,000 worth of debt before they collapsed. |
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Post by dexter on Apr 25, 2024 12:17:53 GMT
As well as being a comparison, it is clear that there's no way any of these rugby clubs will be thinking of starting a basketball department or buying a BBL franchise. Their financial situations are too bad. The only sports clubs that could afford to do that are football clubs.
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Post by notoriousbigz on Apr 26, 2024 9:45:22 GMT
As well as being a comparison, it is clear that there's no way any of these rugby clubs will be thinking of starting a basketball department or buying a BBL franchise. Their financial situations are too bad. The only sports clubs that could afford to do that are football clubs. I was involved with Everton when they had a team, and unless you’re making some kind of return they won’t want to know for more than about 5 minutes. Everton were funded by Everton In The Community (EFCs charity arm) and all the basketball club did was take take take, and quite frankly it seems to be an across the board attitude in the basketball world. When we wake up and start realising what we can offer the world by way of meaningful return, then maybe we’ll start to see real growth. I’m not sure there’s a better model out there for this than what Newcastle Eagles are doing. Happy to be proven wrong. |
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Post by dexter on Apr 26, 2024 12:45:15 GMT
As well as being a comparison, it is clear that there's no way any of these rugby clubs will be thinking of starting a basketball department or buying a BBL franchise. Their financial situations are too bad. The only sports clubs that could afford to do that are football clubs. I was involved with Everton when they had a team, and unless you’re making some kind of return they won’t want to know for more than about 5 minutes. Everton were funded by Everton In The Community (EFCs charity arm) and all the basketball club did was take take take, and quite frankly it seems to be an across the board attitude in the basketball world. When we wake up and start realising what we can offer the world by way of meaningful return, then maybe we’ll start to see real growth. I’m not sure there’s a better model out there for this than what Newcastle Eagles are doing. Happy to be proven wrong. None of the Euroleague teams make a return. Most of them are funded by football teams. The reward is winning something. Making a financial return on investing in sports teams is a very American concept. |
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Post by notoriousbigz on Apr 26, 2024 21:17:52 GMT
I was involved with Everton when they had a team, and unless you’re making some kind of return they won’t want to know for more than about 5 minutes. Everton were funded by Everton In The Community (EFCs charity arm) and all the basketball club did was take take take, and quite frankly it seems to be an across the board attitude in the basketball world. When we wake up and start realising what we can offer the world by way of meaningful return, then maybe we’ll start to see real growth. I’m not sure there’s a better model out there for this than what Newcastle Eagles are doing. Happy to be proven wrong. None of the Euroleague teams make a return. Most of them are funded by football teams. The reward is winning something. Making a financial return on investing in sports teams is a very American concept. Maybe, but we’re lagging behind them significantly in the attraction stakes. Thus needing to be more attractive in the first place to potential investment. I can understand a Euroleague team with a significant community standing and vastly superior fan base being a vanity project for a millionaire/billionaire. But a BBL team with under 500 hardcore fans playing in a multi use sports centre impresses nobody. Sorry but that’s just how it is. |
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Post by dexter on Apr 26, 2024 21:52:40 GMT
None of the Euroleague teams make a return. Most of them are funded by football teams. The reward is winning something. Making a financial return on investing in sports teams is a very American concept. Maybe, but we’re lagging behind them significantly in the attraction stakes. Thus needing to be more attractive in the first place to potential investment. I can understand a Euroleague team with a significant community standing and vastly superior fan base being a vanity project for a millionaire/billionaire. But a BBL team with under 500 hardcore fans playing in a multi use sports centre impresses nobody. Sorry but that’s just how it is. Basketball in Britain just hasn't reached that critical level yet, and the chances of it doing so any time soon seems slim. I think women's team sports in football, rugby and cricket has probably pushed basketball down a bit. They get a lot of broadcast time and funding. Professional football teams are now expected to funds women's teams. One of the reasons the Premiership rugby teams are all making losses is they're funding women's teams which generate no income. |
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