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Post by notoriousbigz on Jan 11, 2024 10:42:21 GMT
Thank you for the replies. So it seems we've reverted to building on sand. History has taught us, this doesn't work. I'm usually a glass half full guy but the positives in this case are few and far between. If (as I read somewhere) the loan was forced on the league by majority owners 777 Partners they're setting the league up to fail. They're the strangest investors I think I've ever come across. Edit, I forgot to add the days of Dairylea or Budweiser putting millions into the league are long gone. The model from 777s point of view is relatively transparent and if it actually came off then everyone would benefit. Come into a "developing" (let's say) basketball league, throw an amount of money at it in the beginning and make it look good, then hope you can sell the product to big investors/sponsorships to create wealth within the game then reap profit or sell at a far higher price than you invested. Venture capitalism 101. The reality though is this - they've bought into what will realistically be a minority sport in the UK for at least my lifetime (whether we like it or not), that isn't overly well supported or watched at all at a time of economic hardship domestically and globally. Add to that they've obviously no clue whatsoever of the domestic basketball state of play (and it could be argued the European sports scene generally), and outsource any bit of assistance/expertise they're bringing to the league, and theyre seemingly looking at getting investment from the states (youre trying to sell under par sand to arabs here lets be honest) you can see how the problems are starting to mount for them. What really annoys me here is the injustice to the likes of Leicester Riders, Newcastle Eagles, Glasgow and Sheffield. Anyone feel free to jump in and give me one tangible benefit 777 have provided them? They've been in this game for a long time - built up extremely credible business models and arenas from scratch, are trying to sustainably lay building blocks for bigger and better things, only to have a gang of charlatans come in, spend a ton of money on London for a few years and will inevitably leave a trail of destruction bigger than the ITV digital collapse in their wake when they get bored. From a business perspective it boils my pee*. *I really am enjoying the London Lions on court in Europe though. And that sometimes angers me even more. |
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Post by milehigh on Jan 11, 2024 12:07:20 GMT
777 could have invested in Lions for the Euro competition without wrecking the BBL as a fair competition.
Removing the salery cap was the worst thing possible for a league that was showing consistant organic growth and recovery.
Even worse it to have a sporting competition owned by a convicted drug dealer, which makes the competition toxic for any ethical sponsors.
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Post by LTfan on Jan 11, 2024 12:24:34 GMT
*I really am enjoying the London Lions on court in Europe though. And that sometimes angers me even more. I think we're all enjoying what the 777 investment has delivered, whether it be a competitive team in high level European competition or the professional coverage of all games available for free. But we just wish 777 weren't who they are, and were perhaps Ryan Reynolds & Rob McElhenney instead. Anyway, I think we might be getting closer and closer to a scenario where 777 walkway from owning the league (and let's all hope leave it in a salvageable state with another investor) and focus only on London Lions. And that might result in London Lions exiting the league and playing only in European competition. A scenario I think quite a few on here would be quite happy to see. I've never really understood why 777 have gone so big on London Lions. Why do they, now at least, need to be one of Europe's biggest teams? I know, I know, bigger sponsorship deals etc. But why didn't they just start with making London Lions one of Britain's biggest basketball teams - something that could have been done at a fraction of the price and probably still delivered similar financial returns as they currently are. Speaking as someone who attends games at the Copper Box regularly, I firmly believe that most of the thousands of people there who've bought tickets, bought merchandise, etc. couldn't care less whether London are playing Tel Aviv or Newcastle. |
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Post by dexter on Jan 11, 2024 12:40:49 GMT
I think we're all enjoying what the 777 investment has delivered, whether it be a competitive team in high level European competition or the professional coverage of all games available for free. But we just wish 777 weren't who they are, and were perhaps Ryan Reynolds & Rob McElhenney instead. Anyway, I think we might be getting closer and closer to a scenario where 777 walkway from owning the league (and let's all hope leave it in a salvageable state with another investor) and focus only on London Lions. And that might result in London Lions exiting the league and playing only in European competition. A scenario I think quite a few on here would be quite happy to see. I've never really understood why 777 have gone so big on London Lions. Why do they, now at least, need to be one of Europe's biggest teams? I know, I know, bigger sponsorship deals etc. But why didn't they just start with making London Lions one of Britain's biggest basketball teams - something that could have been done at a fraction of the price and probably still delivered similar financial returns as they currently are. Speaking as someone who attends games at the Copper Box regularly, I firmly believe that most of the thousands of people there who've bought tickets, bought merchandise, etc. couldn't care less whether London are playing Tel Aviv or Newcastle. Because people like Josh Wander are not right in the head. |
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Post by Stephen Abootman on Jan 11, 2024 19:22:51 GMT
Regarding Josh Wander the 'convicted drug dealer(!!!)'... He was caught with 30 grams of cocaine, once, twenty years ago. That's the extent of it, correct? Not exactly Tony Montana if so.
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Post by milehigh on Jan 11, 2024 19:27:10 GMT
It was a conviction for dealing drugs.
Does that suggest someone is a reputable law abiding citizen? Or someone who could be considered a "fit & proper" person to be a director of a sports club or a sports league?
There is also his unethical actions in the Annuity purchase businesses.
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Post by dexter on Jan 11, 2024 19:47:29 GMT
Regarding Josh Wander the 'convicted drug dealer(!!!)'... He was caught with 30 grams of cocaine, once, twenty years ago. That's the extent of it, correct? Not exactly Tony Montana if so. Funnily enough when I think of Josh Wander he does make me think of Tony Montana. |
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Post by foxtrot27 on Jan 11, 2024 19:47:40 GMT
Wander’s conviction is a serious offence as it was a felony, not a misdemeanour. And the 15 yrs probation suggests there is way more to the story. With a felony conviction in America, no matter how long ago it was, he would have been prohibited to work in financial services and real estate. Not sure about insurance but he apparently was in the low end of that business.
And now under investigation for money laundering. Sounds like a lovely bloke!
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Post by birdorbyrd on Jan 11, 2024 19:48:41 GMT
Regarding Josh Wander the 'convicted drug dealer(!!!)'... He was caught with 30 grams of cocaine, once, twenty years ago. That's the extent of it, correct? Not exactly Tony Montana if so. He pled no contest to charges of attempted cocaine trafficking and was put on probation for more than ten years - only avoiding jail time because he “co-operated on another case” according to the prosecutor involved. He has been in and out of court for years since accused of fraud, breach of contract, fiduciary duty and worse. And been chased for unpaid debts by 2 credit card companies , a casino, a loan shark, and various other companies, including the BBL… |
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Post by ScottishBasketballFan on Jan 11, 2024 19:52:42 GMT
Regarding Josh Wander the 'convicted drug dealer(!!!)'... He was caught with 30 grams of cocaine, once, twenty years ago. That's the extent of it, correct? Not exactly Tony Montana if so. Trying to minimise what he did makes you look stupid. Do you ever consider the victims of drug dealers? You ought to be ashamed of yourself. |
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Post by LTfan on Jan 11, 2024 21:12:03 GMT
Regarding Josh Wander the 'convicted drug dealer(!!!)'... He was caught with 30 grams of cocaine, once, twenty years ago. That's the extent of it, correct? Not exactly Tony Montana if so. We went through the details a few years ago at the old place, it’s pointless have the exact same discussion repeatedly. Let’s just say it was a lot more serious than possession, but he certainly wasn’t Tony Montana either. |
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Post by spacejammer on Jan 11, 2024 21:40:07 GMT
Following this thread I have sort of lost track as to what everyone is talking about.
Although given the title saying the "BBL is days away from administration" clearly wasn't true since months later we're still talking about all this.
My thoughts im not sure what to think anymore.
The only thing I think has become apparent is the league has become a 1 horse race with the Lions.
As for all the going ons at this point I'm just going to wait for eventual docuseries or blockbuster movie that will probably come out in 10-20 years when this is all over and 777 is either a success or a complete disaster.
After watching that Post Office scandal thing on ITV over New Years and seeing it on the news everyday since.
If 777 is as bad as they're said to be I wonder if it will explode as massive as that has.
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Post by Stephen Abootman on Jan 11, 2024 22:55:31 GMT
Regarding Josh Wander the 'convicted drug dealer(!!!)'... He was caught with 30 grams of cocaine, once, twenty years ago. That's the extent of it, correct? Not exactly Tony Montana if so. Trying to minimise what he did makes you look stupid. Do you ever consider the victims of drug dealers? You ought to be ashamed of yourself. Oh calm down Mother Teresa. I'm not saying he's a wonderful bloke. Maybe he is the scumbag everyone's portraying him as. I'm just saying that one seemingly isolated incident that happened two decades ago doesn't really do much to shape my perception of him either way. I don't think it's appropriate to define anyone, good or bad, based on a thing that happened in their very distant past. Sheesh. 'Josh Wander is the devil incarnate' is literally the only opinion that's welcome on this board isn't it. If you have a viewpoint that deviates even a fraction of a degree from that narrative you're made out to be an asshole or branded a '777 spokesperson' or some BS like that. It's pathetic and makes for an incredibly one-sided non-conversation. |
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Post by hayesboy on Jan 12, 2024 8:19:28 GMT
This is the best thread so far on this board. Debate, opinions, claims, counter claims, petty squabbles, team rivalries and BIGZ cutting through it all with incisive intelligent posts as always.
Great Stuff!
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Post by notoriousbigz on Jan 12, 2024 10:08:10 GMT
I'll be honest, I couldn't care less for Josh Wander as an individual. I don't care for his criminal past one jot save for the fact it builds an image of the type of low he's prepared to stoop to.
What does concern me is the way he and his partners do business that will invariably affect the future of the BBL (and it just so happens my football team now as well). And all the signs are at this moment in time pointing one way.
I love what they're doing with London Lions, albeit it's making domestic competition a bit boring I'm all for a higher standard of basketball and other teams are (I think) at least trying to raise the bar a bit to catch up. The nagging issue is I'm not sure there's anyone who can't see this is not sustainable in the slightest.
Also, sack off the box room commentators. I want them courtside and in the thick of the action - its their niche. I dont need a yank telling me the slowest offensive team in the league statistically "like to get out in transition". That's the only criticism I have of the new production.
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Post by milehigh on Jan 12, 2024 10:30:53 GMT
You are 100% right about having the comentators actually at the game. They see, hear and feel more of whats happening, and can gather information before the game.
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Post by dexter on Jan 12, 2024 11:05:37 GMT
What is the number 1 reason London Lions are so hard to beat? Is it that they have more talented players than the other teams? Is it that they have more players? Is it because they're full time professionals? Is it better coaching?
I personally think it's because they have more players. That kind of gives them an unfair advantage a lot of the time. Unless another BBL team has no injuries they are quite limited in their options, especially in the fourth quarter when players get tired and fouled out. Is there something that could be done to make this fairer, like only allowing a match day squad of 8?
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Post by eagles18000 on Jan 12, 2024 11:19:48 GMT
it’s because they have higher level players who play here because they are paid their market value by a team whose last accounts show they lost £5.2m in a year and whose current accounts are late to be filed.
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Post by milehigh on Jan 12, 2024 11:54:34 GMT
Before 777, there was a good system, similar that used by many sports around the world, including the NBA, of a salary cap, to try to equalise the expenditure of the clubs in the league.
777 insisted the cap was removed, negatively affecting the competitive balance of the league.
Since then, not only has the league become less attractive, but it is harder for clubs to attract sponsorship and investment as the potential investors and sponsors know that it is not a fair and level competition.
Also, what reputable organisation would want to get involved with a league run by a convicted drug dealer.
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Post by ScottishBasketballFan on Jan 12, 2024 14:25:36 GMT
What is the number 1 reason London Lions are so hard to beat? Is it that they have more talented players than the other teams? Is it that they have more players? Is it because they're full time professionals? Is it better coaching? I personally think it's because they have more players. That kind of gives them an unfair advantage a lot of the time. Unless another BBL team has no injuries they are quite limited in their options, especially in the fourth quarter when players get tired and fouled out. Is there something that could be done to make this fairer, like only allowing a match day squad of 8? The only reason London Lions are more successful is down to the money being pumped into them, that and getting ex NBA players on big salaries. I mean in Football look at Newcastle United, done hee haw for years and twice suffered relegation then the Saudi's come and all of a sudden they qualify for the Champions League for the first time in a very long time. And to go back to Basketball, there's Timoney's Team, he takes over the Rocks, rebrands them with a crappy name, moves them to East Kilbride and they won a Trophy. |
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